Is songwriting overrated ?

[grimtraveller]

It's one thing to write a song. It's another thing altogether to fashion that song into a recording that endures. And while many, many songs in the history of recording have pretty much gone the way the particular writer wanted them to, it's equally true, perhaps more common actually, that collaborations between artists/band members or session musicians, producers and others are actually what make songs what they become.
Having become so used to hearing the many thousands of songs we know in the way we know them with contributions from a variety of parties, we might be a little disappointed if we heard the raw demos. There again, we might think they were better !
But is songwriting elevated over actual arrangement and if so, is this fair and just ?

 

[diggy_dude]

A good songwriter or songwriting team will often have the arrangement worked out as part of the songwriting process itself rather than as a separate process. I think having such a holistic vision of the final product from the outset makes for a better production than letting it happen by fortuitous coincidence, forcing it to work through a "design by committee" approach, or expecting someone else to fix the deficiencies at some later stage.

 

[legionserial]

I think of arrangment as simply a part of songwriting and to that extent I don't think any of it is one of those things that qualifies for being over or underrated. Songwriting and the process involed is personal to the songwriter. It's value can really only be measured, primarily, by what the songwriter gets out of it, from exorcising demons, to just being able to rock the fuck out; and to the listener, who either likes the song, or doesn't.

All that said, I'd like to point out that if no one wrote or arranged songs, we'd have nothing but jambands like Phish to listen to. And what sort of a world would that be to live in.

 

[guitarplayr82]

Having become so used to hearing the many thousands of songs we know in the way we know them with contributions from a variety of parties, we might be a little disappointed if we heard the raw demos.

I actually really enjoy looking up the demos of some of my favorite bands on YouTube. It's cool to see how the songs evolved into the final recordings we hear today.

 

[grimtraveller]

I actually really enjoy looking up the demos of some of my favorite bands on YouTube. It's cool to see how the songs evolved into the final recordings we hear today.

I agree. It's often interesting to hear the genesis of a song I know well. That said, only a tiny number do I like sufficiently to actually keep to listen to forever and a day.

 

[ActionFletch]

I think a songwriting golden age has sadly faded. Whether a simplistic recording of Dylans Blind Willie McTell or advanced recording mixing on a song like Queens A Kind Of Magic (two extreme examples), my point being the world used to get excited about the song nowadays it's just - does it sound good in da club! Shame.

By "the world" I mean popular music culture.

 

[bdenton]

Think songwriting is overrated?

Try arranging this: " "

That's right...no words, no music. Let's hear how you make it sound.

Going back to the early days of recording, which also marks the beginning of "pop" music, you had three separate functions:

Songwriters wrote the melody line and optionally, the lyrics of a piece of music.

Arrangers selected the instruments to be used when playing and/or recording the piece of music written by the songwriter, "designed" the part(s) each instrument would play, and generally wrote the music notation.

Musicians played the parts written by the arranger, sometimes under the direction of a conductor or music director.

A single person playing more than one or all three of these roles has always existed, but it was not really common until...

The Beatles,and the other members of the British Invasion, were reallly the first people to operate as self-contained units, acting as songwriters, arrangers, and musicians, with the Beach Boys being the only American group to consistently do so.

Having all of the members of the band serve as songwriters, arrangers, and musicians is really a splendid idea...if you happen to be an entertainment lawyer. The reality is that after the band breaks up, if not before, people get down to counting how many notes or words an individual wrote in order to make sure they get $10 more royalty money than the MF other guitar player who used to be their best friend but who is now a total pr*ck...

 

[grimtraveller]

Nobody remembers the actual builders. But everybody honours the architecht !

Think songwriting is overrated?

Try arranging this: " "

John Cage already beat us to it, like 45 years ago !

A good songwriter or songwriting team will often have the arrangement worked out as part of the songwriting process itself rather than as a separate process. I think having such a holistic vision of the final product from the outset makes for a better production than letting it happen by fortuitous coincidence, forcing it to work through a "design by committee" approach.

I remember many years ago reading Roger Waters saying that with Syd Barrett's songs, it really didn't matter who was in the band because Syd had all the parts worked out. But last night I was watching this recent(2008) documentary "A technicolour dream" about the English psychedelic underground of the mid to late 60s in which he said the polar opposite ! Syd wrote the songs, the band worked out their own parts.
That's more what I was getting at when I spoke of "arrangement". When a writer writes a song, unlike the classical composers of old in which every instrumental part is written, leaving no room for any orchestra member to do 'their thing', it's quite rare for them to have worked out each part, the way the drums will go, how the bass fits in with this, harmony and backing vocals etc, etc. It's often the band or members of it that work out those things. Of course if the writer is part of the group, they'll be key in this too. But they won't necesarilly be the only one determining how the recorded song sounds.
It's quite an eye opener reading how many classic singles of the 60s and 70s were made and realizing that so many of those classic arrangements were pretty much put together by faceless session musicians.
Much of the time, musicians bring their own flavours to a song and that song wouldn't be the same without those contributions but it's the whole recorded song with all it's interweaving parts that often are not there in the original writing of the song, that we hear, love and remember. But the 'songwriter' cops the royalties and accolades !

I guess it's realizing the importance of 'process' and not lionizing one particular element of that process.

 

[Armistice]

I've had lots of thoughts on this topic over the years..

Often I hear stuff and I find myself thinking "But for a very good producer/session musicians, this would be an ordinary song"

For instance, I don't know if Lou Reed claims full authorship of "Walk On The Wild Side" but unless he wrote or somehow articulated taht dual bassline, then Herbie Flowers, who played it, could feel a bit miffed (but apparently he doesn't..)... same with the doo, doo, doo, doo, doo stuff...

I don't know - perhaps he did envision it all, but somehow, from what I see of Reed's musicality, I'd doubt it.

I have similar thoughts about a lot of Suzanne Vega's stuff (and I could be completely wrong here, I know little about her musical talents other than acoustic guitar) - some of her best stuff feature sublime arrangements that find me wondering if she's actually thought up herself...

 

[StevenJacksonMu]

I think the really good songs stand on their own with just a simple guitar and voice arrangement.
That's why an album like John Lennon's 'Plastic Ono Band' is so impressive, the Instrumentation is very sparse but the songs are excellent and stand out on their own.
To me this is an album that doesn't sound at all dated.
This would be an example of songwriting, where the songs shine through with minimal fuss.
Too much music today relies on production....first and foremost should come be the quality of the songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDIy2A8Sw7s

 

[Xdrummer]

A good recording has to start with a well written song. While a good arrangement can make a good song shine - a good arrangement can't really make a poor song into a good song.

When I write - I always assess if the song can stand on it's own with only a simple guitar or piano. If the song can't stand on it's own ....... I don't even waste my time working on an arrangement.

 

[Greg_L]

The problem with this topic is how one judges a good song. Some people think "Yesterday" is the best song ever. I think it's trite boring shit. Songs that I like are noise to others. So yeah, "songwriting" probably is pretty overrated. Just write whatever. It doesn't matter.

 

[miroslav]

I actually agree with Greg (WOW, that's twice now )...and to expand on what he said...it's really about YOUR target audience.
That could be just you...or a specific group of people, large or small.

There is tons of music that one group hates and another loves...so it's kind of silly to think there is some special formula for writing songs that everyone will like.

Find your niche...find your audience...write what you like…be happy.

 

[Greg_L]

write what you like…be happy.

Exactly.

For me personally, I don't even have a target audience. If anything, my target audience is myself. I don't give rats ass if anyone likes my music. I didn't write it for them. When I finish a song and I'm happy with it, then it's good enough for anyone else. They can get on board or get out of the way. I'm cool either way.

 

[legionserial]

Exactly.

For me personally, I don't even have a target audience. If anything, my target audience is myself. I don't give rats ass if anyone likes my music. I didn't write it for them. When I finish a song and I'm happy with it, then it's good enough for anyone else. They can get on board or get out of the way. I'm cool either way.

That's totally how it should be. The only person that really needs to be into your music is you. I don't care if people like my shit either. It's nice when they do, but for me, the fun is in the whole process. Once I'm done, I'm bored of the songs and I don't care if anyone even listens to them. It's rare that I do.

 

[Armistice]

Exactly.

For me personally, I don't even have a target audience. If anything, my target audience is myself. I don't give rats ass if anyone likes my music. I didn't write it for them. When I finish a song and I'm happy with it, then it's good enough for anyone else. They can get on board or get out of the way. I'm cool either way.

I hold extensive focus groups and do customer research to work out how people feel about my songs and what I can do to better them... NOT...

I'm with Gergles and Legion and miro on this, I do what I do and it's nice if people like it but that's not the reason I do it - which is not to say that I'm not interested in writing better songs, but I work out how to impreove based on my own assessment of them, rather than anyone else's - in the main, anyway...

Which is why I find this forum interesting sometimes with people coming here seeking feedback on lyrics etc... happy to help if asked, but how can people not know what they want to do?

 

[miroslav]

That's why I don't go out of my way to post up songs for critique. I'm not being snooty about it...it's just that I know there are all kinds of tastes out there...
...so do I really care what others think if I am already happy with my stuff...?

Granted there CAN be a certain type of opinion that is beneficial and specific...like if you put up a piece and wanted to hear opinions on specific mixing elements....is it too muddy, bright, out of balance...etc...but to just put up stuff and say, "tell me what you think"...is a WIDE OPEN invitation, and 9-out-10 times the opinions you get will be mostly based around subjective likes/dislikes of music, rather than objective technical perspectives.
I know a lot of guys who are unsure of their work are always looking for opinions on forus...but they should realize where a lot of the opinions are actually coming from.

I always prefer when someone asks for a specific opinion rather than the generic - "tell me what you think" kind.

 

[bdenton]

Sorry, but I'm hearing a lot of self-centered and self-indulgent people who really don't know how to write songs.

If you are really that great a songwriter, it should be a piece of cake for you to knock out a song that a lot of people will like.

Jerkin off is fun, but making love to someone and pleasing them is one hell of a lot more fun...

 

[StevenJacksonMu]

Sorry, but I'm hearing a lot of self-centered and self-indulgent people who really don't know how to write songs.

If you are really that great a songwriter, it should be a piece of cake for you to knock out a song that a lot of people will like.

Jerkin off is fun, but making love to someone and pleasing them is one hell of a lot more fun...

I don't think it is easy at all to just knock off a song.... it boggles the mind how Lennon and McCartney wrote their stuff so fast in so short a time and of such a high quality....that is TALENT.
I can only speak for myself personally. When I've written that I think is good...I
usually record a rough demo and then put it away for a few days.
I need to get distance from it.
Then after a few days I'll give it another listen...but usually I find it takes time.
I value greatly others opinions of my work.
I don't exist in a vaccuum and once a song has breathed enough life for me on its own it's time to set if free.
I post stuff on the Internet and I love to hear different opinions about it.
Once the song is out there it is no longer just mine and I like that feeling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rHpNopNDvI

 

[Greg_L]

Sorry, but I'm hearing a lot of self-centered and self-indulgent people ...

You say that like it's a bad thing. I'm hearing a lot of healthy attitudes in here. People that don't need the approval of others. Worrying about what other people like and trying to appease the masses is weak. Not everyone wants to make pop music.