First time recording a chior - advice please?

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thomasrolewis

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Hey guys

I've got to record a choir for my final year university project. Its a 25 piece chorus and I'll be recording it in a church. The equipment I intend to use is my mbox2 pro running through protools 8.03 on a macbook pro. I have a matched pair of AKG C214's OR a matched pair of Rode NT2's. Obviously my mbox only has 2 XLR outs so I intend to go for a stereo mic technique.

My questions are;

Should I use the 214's or the NT2's? I know if I use the 214's I'm stuck with cardioid. On the other hand, using the NT2's means losing the quality of the 214's capsules.

Do you think using cardioid and not a polar pattern like figure of 8 would make single voices stand out more?

What stereo mic techniques should I use. A/B, X/Y, decca tree, ect.?

cheers for your advice.
 
For recording a choir it really depends on the acoustics.

There are various ways I would do this and the final choice would depend on the room.

1) ORTF pair of cardioids

2) ORTF pair with omni outriggers

3) MS pair

4) Jecklin or Schneider disk.

In your instance I would think option 1 would be the best as you need four tracks to do option 2.

Listen carefully with your ears while the choir practice and set the mics up where the sound seems best to your ears.

I hope this helps.
 
Thanks for the suggestions. The OTRF pair does sound like a good choice, I've read the wiki page on it. I'll give it a try at the rehearsal, any other ideas?

The OTRF pair has to be 110˚ and 17cm apart. I was wondering if theres a quick way to set this up while I'm there? Maybe mark it on a piece of paper first?

cheers guys
 
The single most important consideration is what kind of space are you recording in? Is it a church or concert hall with a nice sound? Or is it a crappy hall which sounds dreadful?

If it's a great sounding room, then a great technique to use is a blumlein pair, using two figure of 8s in an XY configuration. This way you pick up a good deal of ambient sound. You can vary the ratio of direct to ambient sound by moving the pair closer or further from the choir.

That said... I would probably opt for your C214 mics in an ORTF pair. However, be prepared to add reverb later on after you've recorded, as ORTF will pick up mostly direct sound. Make sure you have a good reverb plugin, or outboard (hopefully your college has something like a Lexicon).

I've done a lot of choir recording in the past, so feel free to fire over more questions!
 
pezking said:
The single most important consideration is what kind of space are you recording in? Is it a church or concert hall with a nice sound? Or is it a crappy hall which sounds dreadful?

If it's a great sounding room, then a great technique to use is a blumlein pair, using two figure of 8s in an XY configuration. This way you pick up a good deal of ambient sound. You can vary the ratio of direct to ambient sound by moving the pair closer or further from the choir.
Click to expand...

Yes, listen to the room, what pezking says is good advice.

However, if you choose the Blumlein set-up it's best to set the two fig-8s as MS rather than XY. This way you have a lot more control and can easily widen or narrow the image as required.

Also, if the room has a good reverb but nasty flutter echo, you could try the fig-8s as a Faulkner array - spaced, both facing forwards - this way you will get the long room reverberation, but not the reflections from the side walls.


pezking said:
That said... I would probably opt for your C214 mics in an ORTF pair. However, be prepared to add reverb later on after you've recorded, as ORTF will pick up mostly direct sound. Make sure you have a good reverb plugin, or outboard (hopefully your college has something like a Lexicon).
Click to expand...

ORTF does actually pick up room sound, but not so much from the rear.

I disagree about artificial reverb, though.

I have never, yet, needed to use artificial reverb and get the correct reverb by mic. placement at the original venue.

If you are not sure, record four tracks with an ORTF pair with omni outriggers. The omnis will be very low in the final mix, but will be used to bring in the room to get the best balance between direct and reverberant sound.

I hope this helps.
 
I agree with Mr. Willett, pretty much. ORTF or NOS (a favorite of mine for choirs) will work very well for what you want to do, and electronic ambience for a choir in a church is not only unecessary, but generally sounds awful.
The easiest way to set it up in advance is to use a good stereo bar and pre-setup the array. You'll find it's very easy if you have the standard AKG H85 or H100 shock mounts, which are pretty big. They will force about the right amount of physical separation, and make true coincedent recording pretty much impossible The key is the mic stand. You need something heavy duty enough to put the array a bit above the conductor, facing down at the choir. And given the mics available, I would use the C214's in preference to the Rodes, without the slightest hesitation. Best of luck-Richie
 
I am installing a Shure choir condenser mic (can't recall the model- 202 or something) in a UU church sanctuary, primarily so the choir is well heard in a remote sanctuary (remote, but on -site- in a different building.) I will be recording the choir soon, so I am glad this thread is here.

My remote recording device is a Zoom R16, which can record to 8 channels simultaneously. It has two built-in condenser mics which can be activated or de-activated as the operator wishes, and two of the channels can provide phantom power. My initial plan is to connect the Shure choir condenser to one of the PP channels, and place 7 SM58's in front of members of the choir. I want to go direct to the R16, rather than through a mixer. I will record all 8 tracks, and mix it down to one mono or two stereo tracks later.

Once I do this, I will report back here. If anyone has any holes they can plausably punch in this, go right ahead.
 
John Willett said:
Yes, listen to the room, what pezking says is good advice.

However, if you choose the Blumlein set-up it's best to set the two fig-8s as MS rather than XY. This way you have a lot more control and can easily widen or narrow the image as required.

Also, if the room has a good reverb but nasty flutter echo, you could try the fig-8s as a Faulkner array - spaced, both facing forwards - this way you will get the long room reverberation, but not the reflections from the side walls.




ORTF does actually pick up room sound, but not so much from the rear.

I disagree about artificial reverb, though.

I have never, yet, needed to use artificial reverb and get the correct reverb by mic. placement at the original venue.

If you are not sure, record four tracks with an ORTF pair with omni outriggers. The omnis will be very low in the final mix, but will be used to bring in the room to get the best balance between direct and reverberant sound.

I hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Great post, John.

I didn't mean to say that ORTF will not pick up ambient sound.

However from my experience, I've found it difficult to get the pair far enough away from the choir to make it feasible to get a sound which is not somewhat dry. Main reason being that the front row of chairs is too close to be able to get the mic pair far enough away.
 
I always mess up a link when I post after it in the same post. It's amazing how they position the member of the group in different areas of the basilica for different effect.
 
Great advice guys cheers.

Looking at what you guys have said I'll opt for the c214s (i also own one of these mics personally so I know it much better than the NT2) using a ORTF set up. Well that will be the first one I try.

The space I'm recording in is meant to sound great acoustically. However, I have never been. All I know is that it is where alot of christmas choir concerts are held and that it is a fairly large church.

I can only record 2 channels at once as my interface only has 2 XLR ins. However, my university own a number of location recorders such as the high end zoom ones. Do you think it would be worth taking one of them along to?

Thanks for all the advice!

One last question, best position? Obviously I'll listen around but i need to give the conductor an idea. Im thinking pretty much slap band infront or behind him?

cheers
 
pezking said:
Great post, John.

I didn't mean to say that ORTF will not pick up ambient sound.

However from my experience, I've found it difficult to get the pair far enough away from the choir to make it feasible to get a sound which is not somewhat dry. Main reason being that the front row of chairs is too close to be able to get the mic pair far enough away.
Click to expand...

I agree - in this situation I would sling a wire across the church and hang the microphones above the audience.

I have done this several times in St. John's Smith Square in London.

Another solution is a stand, weighted with sandbags or the like, at the side, supporting a very long fishpole (like the Ambient one) - a friend recorded a memorial service in a cathedral by this method. The stand was actually in the pulpit on the side which was not being used at the time.
 
thomasrolewis said:
I can only record 2 channels at once as my interface only has 2 XLR ins. However, my university own a number of location recorders such as the high end zoom ones. Do you think it would be worth taking one of them along too?
Click to expand...

I would not call Zoom "high end", although they can be excellent value for money.


thomasrolewis said:
One last question, best position? Obviously I'll listen around but i need to give the conductor an idea. Im thinking pretty much slap band in front or behind him?
Click to expand...

Normally behind the conductor is best.
 
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