New Analog Multitracks?

[stevieb]

I wouldn't bet on it.

They have trouble manufacturing & assembling 10 electric guitars in a row exactly the same way...I can't see them doing any better with a multi-track deck that has tons of precision parts and all kinds of delicate electronics.

I'm not trying to just slam the Chinese...but man, their QC sucks big time, and they are known for slipping in shoddy/cheap raw materials (even toxic crap) just to lower the production costs.

But I hope I'm wrong...it would be great to see them put out a TASCAM, OTARI...or dare I say it --- a Studer quality deck!!!

Frankly, I think you are right, and I hope you are right, too. As I see it, three reasons not to buy Chinese:

1. Woeful QC (as you mentioned; )

2. Human-rights record at least as bad;

3. China is the last place we should be "exporting" our economy to.

Sorry to go political in this thread, but I think those are good reasons, regardless of one's political views- unless you live in China!

 

[GCalo]

Not going political.

All great points and most appropriate especially as our economy is doing so poorly!

Always good to bring up all points to consider.

I doubt they would be successful at it anyway.

As was stated, their QC is horrible for technology.

 

[cjacek]

I think that if and when a company decides to resurrect their analogue side of things, whether it be OTARI, TASCAM, STUDER or whatever, they have to realize that they're catering to a niche, a pretty well versed bunch of guys and.... having a "MADE IN CHINA" machine will simply not rest well with the buyer. There's just way too much bad association with those 3 words, many of which are outlined above. Any company which built reputation on well designed machines, which were Japan made, tested and tried, will make a huge blunder by going to China. The name alone will at least halve their potential clientèle.

 

[GCalo]

Perfect case in point is NEC who created plasma and was an industry leader for years.

They were forced to cut manufacturing costs to stay competitive and went to China.

The product from China was an OEM make built to NEC specs. It was a huge disappointment, and the venture lasted just over a year whereupon NEC then, in April 2009, ceased production and distribution of plasmas.

A true catastrophy!

 

[briank]

Frankly, I think you are right, and I hope you are right, too. As I see it, three reasons not to buy Chinese:

1. Woeful QC (as you mentioned; )

2. Human-rights record at least as bad;

3. China is the last place we should be "exporting" our economy to.

Sorry to go political in this thread, but I think those are good reasons, regardless of one's political views- unless you live in China!

I think that if and when a company decides to resurrect their analogue side of things, whether it be OTARI, TASCAM, STUDER or whatever, they have to realize that they're catering to a niche, a pretty well versed bunch of guys and.... having a "MADE IN CHINA" machine will simply not rest well with the buyer. There's just way too much bad association with those 3 words, many of which are outlined above. Any company which built reputation on well designed machines, which were Japan made, tested and tried, will make a huge blunder by going to China. The name alone will at least halve their potential clientèle.

Good posts!

 

[leddy]

I find it hard to believe anyone would consider tooling up to make R2R decks at this time, but you never know.

I do believe it would be substantially easier than it was years ago. I think a PLC (programmable logic controller) could be implemented to handle all of the tape moving parts, eliminating a good chunk of the specialized mechanical parts that can wear, need to be adjusted, etc. You'd have a motor (or motors), the PLC, the audio path, and the actual tape path/heads, etc.

It could be a more simple device than the previous generation of tape decks and need less maintenance.

 

[jpmorris]

Yes, if you can manage the tape tension correctly you can eliminate various parts of the tape path. Otari did something like this in the MTR90, and I'm pretty sure you could also build a capstanless microprocessor transport, but that kind of design wouldn't be able to run a tape loop.

If I were going to build a custom transport controller as a hobbyist, I'd look into the Arduino processor, but you might have to use several. You could almost certainly drive the entire machine with a single AVR32 or ARM CPU, but the Arduino is aimed particularly at controlling physical devices rather than as a pure software platform.

 

[Blue Jinn]

Discrete components vs VLSI chips is another discussion, you could probably eliminate relays, (and e.g. the more complex power supply on e.g. the Otari MX5050....) but you'd still need motors, tension arms, brake selenoids, etc. Still a lot of moving parts, and if you look at some of the Fostex R8 threads, some of those plastic parts weren't such a great idea.

 

[jpmorris]

Discrete components vs VLSI chips is another discussion, you could probably eliminate relays, (and e.g. the more complex power supply on e.g. the Otari MX5050....) but you'd still need motors, tension arms, brake selenoids, etc. Still a lot of moving parts, and if you look at some of the Fostex R8 threads, some of those plastic parts weren't such a great idea.

In principle you might be able to do some kind of electronic braking via the reel motors, but in practice that would be a really bad idea since you'd have an unholy mess if the power went down.

It would still be interesting to see how much of the transport you could remove and still have a usable machine, though. Further to what I was saying earlier, there were a number of capstanless machines developed. Brennell were developing one, the Ampex ATR did this and so did the Stephens machines.

 

[Audiophallic]

Yeah I'd have to say I'd prefer electronics made in Japan (or even Korea) over anything made in China...

 

[Lance Lawson]

Made in China does not mean automatically made like crap. China is turning out a lot of quality things. They've the world leader in quality low cost condenser microphones. The Chinese could make a R2R tape machine as well as anybody else. But is there truly a market for an 8/16/24 track tape deck anymore? It would take a mass shift back to analog and there are a lot of used classic multitrack studio decks around. Its a little like tubes there are still lots of NOS tubes to service the needs of tube equipment. I'd like to see more R2R's on the market it might make for greater choice in tapes and a lowering of tape cost. Sadly though once the kids realize that analog tape requires a higher level of engineering skill and performances they'll head back to the comfort of digital.

 

[Blue Jinn]

In principle you might be able to do some kind of electronic braking via the reel motors, but in practice that would be a really bad idea since you'd have an unholy mess if the power went down.

It would still be interesting to see how much of the transport you could remove and still have a usable machine, though. Further to what I was saying earlier, there were a number of capstanless machines developed. Brennell were developing one, the Ampex ATR did this and so did the Stephens machines.

Frankly, I wouldn't expect any new R&D on a deck from China, I'd suspect more of an adaption of a proven design, or perhaps a reverse engineering of something like a Fostex. Heck, the Russians reverse engineered a B-29...

Is there really a market? I don't know. I'm not sure how big the market was 20 years ago, really, consideraing the price of a Fostex R8 or a Tascam MSR-16, adjusted for inflation you're talking orders of magnitude higher cost in 1990 than what a Delta 1010 costs today. Although, the first digital decks (like the Sony DASH) I think cost more than a house did in 1990. So, in a way "pro-sumer" analog is considerably more affordable today than it was in it prime, but the cost of digital has decreased as well (and probably helped by the lower cost of the PC.)

I don't have firm numbers, but I've raised this point in some of the other (mostly digressions into analog vs digital flame wars....) threads: are there more people using digital than analog? or are there just more people recording at home? (as an "analog vs digital" more people use digital therefore.....)

The answer to the first question of obvious, but I am not sure the proper question ought not to be are there significantly less people recording analog today then in the past? I honestly don't know. Probably less overall, but significantly? What would be significant 50% 25% 10% and I just don't know the numbers.

Tape as a consumer medium certainly so, and realistically, the heydey of reel to reel as a hi-fi choice was probably in the 1970s, and the cassette, hung on for a little while I suppose in cars...

 

[Lance Lawson]

Frankly, I wouldn't expect any new R&D on a deck from China, I'd suspect more of an adaption of a proven design, or perhaps a reverse engineering of something like a Fostex. Heck, the Russians reverse engineered a B-29...

I don't have firm numbers, but I've raised this point in some of the other (mostly digressions into analog vs digital flame wars....) threads: are there more people using digital than analog? or are there just more people recording at home? (as an "analog vs digital" more people use digital therefore.....)

Tape as a consumer medium certainly so, and realistically, the heydey of reel to reel as a hi-fi choice was probably in the 1970s, and the cassette, hung on for a little while I suppose in cars...

New R&D isn't necessary at all. Everything needed to make a tape recorder (of any type and purpose) already exists. The plans exist some of the tooling still exists and the knowledge to build and service them still exists. Reel to reel tape recorders were never inexpensive and good cassette decks were pricey too so any new R2R would be expected to cost a fair amount. But think of the LDC mics coming out of China now. A few years ago LDC mics cost thousands and now some very attractive and good Chinese built LDC mics can be had for a few hundred dollars or less. I don't think the problem is that the task to build new R2R's is too complex. I think it is the nature of the market that is the problem. Big consumer R2R's would have to find a way into the buying and listening preferences of younger people. SInce most audiophile equipment gets purchased by people in their mid 20's to early 30's a huge hurdle is simply the size weight and single purpose of big tape machines. I think that someone raised on Walkman's and MP3 players a single purpose audio device weighing 40lbs and as big as a large PC tower is going to have a rough sell. ALso will the kids even be able to hear the difference between big analog and mini digital anymore?

I do think that the professional market would embrace new multitrack pro decks but that's not enough to really float a new market and it won't foster competition in the tape market to lower the cost of open reel tape. However with the proper marketing the idea of a new generation of R2R machines could happen. If they sound good look good and are reliable then maybe consumer decks costing between $400 -$600 might sell. I say let the pro market be the pro market. It always been an expensive place and it'll remain an expensive place. Lots of studios still buy expensive gear and will continue to do so because that's what the pro market is.

 

[Beck]

One of the biggest hurdles for new analog is competition from old analog. We know there’s a thriving analog community despite the fact that no one is making new decks. The reason is that old analog machines can be purchased and restored for much less than the cost of a new deck.

Here’s something from Eddie Ciletti I’ve quoted in the past. It pretty much says it:

“Analog machines will continue to be serviceable—now, after 20, 30 or 40 years and in the future—because they mostly consist of hardware that any skilled machinist can re-create. (No digital format will be as easy to support after manufacturers throw in the towel.)”

-Eddie Ciletti
Mix Magazine Aug. 2000

 

[zorf]

I know that one of the main reasons folks here on HR like analog decks is because they are cheap.

Both the decks and the people.

That would include me.

I just can't see a market for decks unless they were less than twice the price of a used one.

And unless they were really well built and supported, unlikely in a Chinese made scenario, I can't see professional studios buying them.

 

[SteveM]

Here’s something from Eddie Ciletti I’ve quoted in the past. It pretty much says it:

“Analog machines will continue to be serviceable—now, after 20, 30 or 40 years and in the future—because they mostly consist of hardware that any skilled machinist can re-create. (No digital format will be as easy to support after manufacturers throw in the towel.)”

-Eddie Ciletti
Mix Magazine Aug. 2000

Nice to hear. And interesting point.

 

[SteveM]

.

And unless they were really well built and supported, unlikely in a Chinese made scenario, I can't see professional studios buying them.

I could see pro studios buying them I just couldn't see the home recordist buying them. Problem is there's not enough signed talent that's worth recording on them.

 

[Lance Lawson]

One of the biggest hurdles for new analog is competition from old analog. We know there’s a thriving analog community despite the fact that no one is making new decks. The reason is that old analog machines can be purchased and restored for much less than the cost of a new deck.

Here’s something from Eddie Ciletti I’ve quoted in the past. It pretty much says it:

“Analog machines will continue to be serviceable—now, after 20, 30 or 40 years and in the future—because they mostly consist of hardware that any skilled machinist can re-create. (No digital format will be as easy to support after manufacturers throw in the towel.)”

-Eddie Ciletti
Mix Magazine Aug. 2000

I disagree and I don't think the decks running today will be running in 20 or 30 years. Already some decks are orphans and others that had poor factory service backing are suffering. I don't think it'll be the mechanical parts that do them in. It'll be the electronic parts. For instance I own a mid 80's Japanese sports car that I've had from new. I drove it daily for 14 years then retired it as a daily driver. While the mechanical parts are great and the car runs wonderfully still many of it's 22 micro processors have quit and some of its digital instrument panel displays have died. These items can not be had new anymore and are very hard to find used if at all. Unfortunately making circuit boards from scratch is a specialist industrial process and unlikely to find its way into the cottage industry realm.

Of course there may also be a tape shortage eventually too as fewer and fewer decks are left to supply. Once again making magnetic tape is an industrial process and if the industry specialists call it a day then the game is up for good.

 

[sweetbeats]

I disagree and I don't think the decks running today will be running in 20 or 30 years. Already some decks are orphans and others that had poor factory service backing are suffering. I don't think it'll be the mechanical parts that do them in. It'll be the electronic parts. For instance I own a mid 80's Japanese sports car that I've had from new. I drove it daily for 14 years then retired it as a daily driver. While the mechanical parts are great and the car runs wonderfully still many of it's 22 micro processors have quit and some of its digital instrument panel displays have died. These items can not be had new anymore and are very hard to find used if at all. Unfortunately making circuit boards from scratch is a specialist industrial process and unlikely to find its way into the cottage industry realm.

Of course there may also be a tape shortage eventually too as fewer and fewer decks are left to supply. Once again making magnetic tape is an industrial process and if the industry specialists call it a day then the game is up for good.

I guarantee my already 40 year old Ampex MM-1000 will still be running in 20, 30 and 40 more years.

 

[Chilljam]

I guarantee my already 40 year old Ampex MM-1000 will still be running in 20, 30 and 40 more years.

Yes it will be running but only because you are restoring it... keep in mind when you got it, it was in pieces and not running properly so it didn't last it's first 40 years.