Sky Blue Lou
Well-known member
Old wood is good wood, eh? Maybe it's a function of the wood and stresses in construction. Does vibration play any part? I dunno dunno.
lou
lou
muttley600
Banned
Sky Blue Lou
Well-known member
I guess my tendency would be to go with that answer. You talk about tests and whatnot. Has the subject been "laboratory" tested and disproved?
lou
muttley600
Banned
Timber and it's relative properties play a huge part in the subjective value of an instrument. The key is in the word subjective.
There have been many many studies into the properties of aged wood, both naturally aged and artificially "aged". They all come down to altering the properties of the material and claims based on the effects that has.. None have shown any real scientific or objective proof that old is best. Mainly because it is subjective but also because they don't really know what they are attempting to demonstrate/prove. Be very wary of anyone that says they have an explanation for a phenomenon that a/ possibly doesn't exist and b/ is a result of something that is immeasurable.
That said I have my own views on the merit of "playing in" but they are my views and they are not supported in any way by scientific hogwash. They are my gut feelings that I use when I'm building an instrument. And as you know I have done a bunch of study and research on the subject.
I could reliably point out a number of areas that it may be a factor and support that claim. I could also kid you all and pretend to have found the secret of Stradivarius. I choose the former.
muttley600
Banned
There have been studies. But it always comes back to "what is being tested" and "what they want to prove". Most studies that have gained a ground swell of support have been the result of under graduate research in the violin acoustics world. Just about all have been kicked into touch. I could point you at some if you are interested.
guido #2
New member
So I bet you don't believe in love, either 
Cya- I have to go home...
Cya- I have to go home...
Sky Blue Lou
Well-known member
It's probably fairly heavy reading - I'll take yer word for it.
Have you ever heard of the guy in northern central USA (Wisconsin, Minnesota...?) that started a huge business salvaging sunken timber from the old river log drives? These are 100+ year old oaks and maples and such the size of which you just can't get anymore. He had furniture and instrument makers all agog a few years back. Don't know what came of it but I saw a show on TV back then and it looked pretty interesting. Somebody was going nuts about making violins out of this preserved old wood.
lou
muttley600
Banned
Look at it this way.
I'm not dismissing any possible physical or acoustic property of the wood here. I'd love it if I could predict the way things change but I can't. I wish I could. I believe timber changes in fact I know it does but how is another issue.
Here is an equally plausible explanation. Prove me wrong.
You have just bought a guitar. You have never played one before. As of now you know jack shit. It does sound cool though. You learn Stairway to heaven in three days, well done but it still sounds shit. You work at it and slowly it sounds better... You get better.
Move on a year or so. You repertoire has broadened, you can play some fast lead licks, cool chords, even a bit of chickin' pickin' for the girls.. you're technique has improved hugely. You have a real feel now but you still have to work at it. That guitar is sounding good though...
A year on you can play loads of stuff really well. So well in fact your touch and feel has moved on to a point that you can concentrate on the nuances of the music. Man that guitar sounds good.
A few years on, you really have the music under you fingers, the touch and feel are second nature, people stop and watch in awe as you play. You seem to be able to pull every last bit of sound out of that baby..
Now what exactly has improved with age..?
I'm not dismissing any possible physical or acoustic property of the wood here. I'd love it if I could predict the way things change but I can't. I wish I could. I believe timber changes in fact I know it does but how is another issue.
Here is an equally plausible explanation. Prove me wrong.
You have just bought a guitar. You have never played one before. As of now you know jack shit. It does sound cool though. You learn Stairway to heaven in three days, well done but it still sounds shit. You work at it and slowly it sounds better... You get better.
Move on a year or so. You repertoire has broadened, you can play some fast lead licks, cool chords, even a bit of chickin' pickin' for the girls.. you're technique has improved hugely. You have a real feel now but you still have to work at it. That guitar is sounding good though...
A year on you can play loads of stuff really well. So well in fact your touch and feel has moved on to a point that you can concentrate on the nuances of the music. Man that guitar sounds good.
A few years on, you really have the music under you fingers, the touch and feel are second nature, people stop and watch in awe as you play. You seem to be able to pull every last bit of sound out of that baby..
Now what exactly has improved with age..?
muttley600
Banned
Yeh, There are a bunch of sources of "bog" "petrified" "skunked" etc.. timbers out there. You have to have an angle to sell that shit. Having said some of it is quite good timber.
muttley600
Banned
So I bet you don't believe in love, either
Cya- I have to go home...
Hey I love this shit. I'm an acoustician as much as a guitar maker. I love both. Having spent a good deal of time grappling with this stuff at quite a high level I do need a bit more than " yeh yeh of course I love yer... now bend over"..
Chili
Site Moderator
Well, I don't know about strings acting upon the wood, but I suppose the guitar as a system will age. Timber, joints, glue, structure, strings,etc... all will age, like a newly built house settling after the first few season cycles. Whether it sounds better or not is probably 90% chance and 10% design.
What happens to wood as it ages?? Maybe outgasses CO2 and absorbs water... Maybe the vibrating strings expedite the process, but would it really make any difference? Seems negligable to me.... but what do I know?
And as for vintage pickups vs NOS pickups: There's too many other variables to consider before age plays a factor. imho, of course....
jimistone
long standing member
I think guitars get better with age. When you first buy a guitar it may not have the best set up that suits you...it may not have the best sounding strings...the edge of the fret bord may feel a little too square off....the finish on the face of the guitar where your right forearm rests may have a slight tacky feel...the back of the neck may be just a tad too glossy and have a tacky feel to it too. Also, the wood may not be completely dried yet.
Forward to a time when you have owned the guitar for 10 years:
It has the best set up possible for your tastes...after dozens of different strings you now have the perfect set on it...all the edges that felt a bit uncomfortable have been worn down from playing and your forearm has, after years of playing, rubbed off the finish and it's not tacky now...the back of the neck feels as soft and smooth as a powdered babys bottom....and the wood has done all the drying buckling and bending it is ever going to do.
It's a much better sounding and playing guitar than it was when brand new.
Forward to a time when you have owned the guitar for 10 years:
It has the best set up possible for your tastes...after dozens of different strings you now have the perfect set on it...all the edges that felt a bit uncomfortable have been worn down from playing and your forearm has, after years of playing, rubbed off the finish and it's not tacky now...the back of the neck feels as soft and smooth as a powdered babys bottom....and the wood has done all the drying buckling and bending it is ever going to do.
It's a much better sounding and playing guitar than it was when brand new.
jimistone
long standing member
I bought a really nice Guild DV52 a while back and it's 12 years old.
It sounds very good...probably the most balanced acoustic sound of any guitar I have ever heard. The volume and projection is simply amazing.
It really makes alot of high end guitars sound like freakin' toys in comparisan.
Hit an open D chord...man it sounds reeeeal good
Hit open C chord...very nice indeed.
hit that open G chord...mmm now we're talkin'!
But I never will forget the 1st time I strumed an open E chord on that guitar.
Oh my God...
Angels must have DV52's to strum E chords on at the gates of Heaven!!!
Man I'm tellin' y'all...it's to die for.
A really beautiful thing.
You know...sometimes I pull that guitar out of it's case and go straight for the open E. Then I put it back up because it just don't get any better than that!
It sounds very good...probably the most balanced acoustic sound of any guitar I have ever heard. The volume and projection is simply amazing.
It really makes alot of high end guitars sound like freakin' toys in comparisan.
Hit an open D chord...man it sounds reeeeal good
Hit open C chord...very nice indeed.
hit that open G chord...mmm now we're talkin'!
But I never will forget the 1st time I strumed an open E chord on that guitar.
Oh my God...
Angels must have DV52's to strum E chords on at the gates of Heaven!!!
Man I'm tellin' y'all...it's to die for.
A really beautiful thing.
You know...sometimes I pull that guitar out of it's case and go straight for the open E. Then I put it back up because it just don't get any better than that!
muttley600
Banned
Well, I don't know about strings acting upon the wood, but I suppose the guitar as a system will age. Timber, joints, glue, structure, strings,etc... all will age, like a newly built house settling after the first few season cycles. Whether it sounds better or not is probably 90% chance and 10% design.
What happens to wood as it ages?? Maybe outgasses CO2 and absorbs water... Maybe the vibrating strings expedite the process, but would it really make any difference? Seems negligable to me.... but what do I know?
And as for vintage pickups vs NOS pickups: There's too many other variables to consider before age plays a factor. imho, of course....
As far as what physically happens to timber as it ages.
Principally we are talking acoustic instruments here and not the setup and playing in. So we are most interested in the soundboard and the bracing which are normally spruce. A new top is said to "open up" as it gets older. That can take weeks to a year or two and I'd say it is true in my experience. As for aging over years I have never seen it or seen any reason why it may happen. So what is going on?
Yes the guitar settles into it's preferred state of rest and in time measurable properties of timber such as "creep" take place. Creep is property of timber that defines it's long term ability to remember it's position under load. In other words if you bend a piece of timber and then let it go it returns to it's original position. Bend it and keep it there for months or years it will stay bent to some degree. The structure of the timber has changed the cells and lignin have assumed a new position.
It is this property that is thought to be responsible for the playing in of guitars mainly because all the other properties have stayed the same. Only the lignin and "memory" of the cell structure has changed. The theory goes that if it can memorise a static position it could also memorise an osculating pattern. There has been no evidence that this is true from the many studies looking into it.
Other methods and explanations that attempt to exploit this possible phenomena have been published and some are still pushed today as a "wonder" fix. Everything from blasting the instrument in a sound proof enclosure for days/weeks/months to using ammonia and other gasses to accelerate the speed of the creep in the timber.
I have yet to see any research evidence that this is the case and have not seen any evidence that it actually works in the real world either. I am still open to any further studies but as I have been getting at it is always next to impossible to scientifically prove what is a subjective assessment. We already know that the timber does change in some ways but to call it "better" has to be qualified in some way.
guido #2
New member
Im back...
OK- so we're on the same page. As wood ages, it changes and affects the tone of the guitar.
Whether it affects it positively or adversely is in the ears of the beholder. My ears tell me that usually it's for the better.
Add to that years and years of vibrations, and that wood, glue and everything else is surely gonna settle into a state different from where it started.
That was a long way around to an agreement
The thing about the P/Us, however, is just a hunch. I've heard it, but it makes no sense to me why.
OK- so we're on the same page. As wood ages, it changes and affects the tone of the guitar.
Whether it affects it positively or adversely is in the ears of the beholder. My ears tell me that usually it's for the better.
Add to that years and years of vibrations, and that wood, glue and everything else is surely gonna settle into a state different from where it started.
That was a long way around to an agreement
The thing about the P/Us, however, is just a hunch. I've heard it, but it makes no sense to me why.
muttley600
Banned
Im back...
OK- so we're on the same page. As wood ages, it changes and affects the tone of the guitar.
Whether it affects it positively or adversely is in the ears of the beholder. My ears tell me that usually it's for the better.
Add to that years and years of vibrations, and that wood, glue and everything else is surely gonna settle into a state different from where it started.
That was a long way around to an agreement
The thing about the P/Us, however, is just a hunch. I've heard it, but it makes no sense to me why.
Nope we are not in agreement. Those changes take place in a matter of a few years, max.. Also they have never been shown to make a difference. Opening up as it is called normally takes a few months and has little to do with creep or lignin cell structure.
A lot of people believe they can hear stuff that just ain't happening. Google and read up on psychoacoustics.
D
dintymoore
Guest
Even cymbals change with age, and sometimes radically. I have a cymbal I bought in the mid-70's. It's a 22" swish and it was always extremely loud and somewhat unruly. I used it for about 10 years like that and then put it in my cymbal bag.
At about the 20 year mark, I took out the cymbal and it was completely different, and I'm not talking about from being covered with grime. The metal changed. The disagreements worked themselves out. Now it's super playable. The typical thing of "less treble" with age. Who would think that metal would do that.
I tend to not like new acoustic instruments. The best guitars I've worked with (I don't play guitar) are Martins from the 1920's and 30's. I use mostly old K cymbals from the 1950's and my drums are Gretsch from that era and some Ludwigs.
At about the 20 year mark, I took out the cymbal and it was completely different, and I'm not talking about from being covered with grime. The metal changed. The disagreements worked themselves out. Now it's super playable. The typical thing of "less treble" with age. Who would think that metal would do that.
I tend to not like new acoustic instruments. The best guitars I've worked with (I don't play guitar) are Martins from the 1920's and 30's. I use mostly old K cymbals from the 1950's and my drums are Gretsch from that era and some Ludwigs.
Chili
Site Moderator
Not to disagree with ya because I don't know if a cymbal will change over the years, but don't you think your memory changed a little in 20 years? Or your perception? Or your frame of reference?
muttley600
Banned
How? Why? Got any evidence to back that up? Other than your ears and perception that is.
guido #2
New member
But there's more to it than that. Glue. Finish. Environment.
And no, I don't think that guitars settle in months. It takes years.
Give it up. Science can't answer everything.
I believe my ears more than my meters
And no, I don't think that guitars settle in months. It takes years.
Give it up. Science can't answer everything.
I believe my ears more than my meters