Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
You can configure your room and learn your monitors and produce decent results with pretty much any old mid range 'monitors' right? Mackies, Yamaha, M-Audio...
LDS
New member
Interesting post.
As both a club racer and a recording musician I can relate to the point you're trying to make. But...
Let me make some additional analogies.
I don't race cars, but do hold an Expert motorcycle roadracing license.
In any type of racing, there are multiple classes. The guy on the vintage Honda 350 doesn't compete directly against the guy on the Suzuki 650 lightweight twin and neither one competes directly against the racers on the open-class 1000cc superbikes. That being said, I have seen racers on the vintage bikes turn lap times competitive with the lightweight twins and there are guys on the lightweight twins who go fast enough to earn a podium spot if they were to run with the superbikes. And conversely, I've seen neophyte racers on the best equipment available be slow enough that they were basically mobile chicanes to others in their class.
One of the problems we face as home recordists or recording musicians working in a hobby studio environment is that those separate, distinct classes don't exist. To the listener, it's all just music.
Now, how is it that some guys on the "slower" bikes (home/hobby studio) can be faster (make better sounding recordings) than some guys on the "fastest" bikes (high dollar "perfect" studios)?
Several reasons.
Reason number one - know your equipment and how to operate it. A person who knows the limits of their 70 horsepower motorcycle (home/hobby studio) can squeeze more out of it than the person hopping on a full on superbike (pro/"perfect" studio) if they're highly proficient or just plain talented.
Reason number two - tuning. Someone who takes the time and puts forth the effort to learn and apply the precise suspension settings, tire pressures and engine tweaks (microphone selection & placement, gain staging and room setup) can, when coupled with inherent talent (uh... inherent talent) outperform someone with the hottest bike out there that isn't set up properly (great speakers and mics, etc., improperly placed).
Reason number three - flat out desire and belief in their ability to succeed. Irrespective of the endeavor, someone who is determined to do their homework and keep learning is more likely to get great results.
The bottom line is that excellent equipment is definitely a plus, but the most important thing is for people to use whatever they have to the best of their abilities - and keep refining and improving those abilities. The quest to refine and improve those abilities is what keeps bringing people here, and keeps them asking what many experts and pros see as redundant or stupid questions. Those "same old questions" aren't redundant or stupid to the person whose body of knowledge is in an embryonic state. A racer doesn't jump out on a new track and immediately start turning their best lap times. They have to learn the track. And at that point it doesn't matter if they have the fastest, most state of the art motorcycle. It's the loose nut that connects the handlebars to the seat that makes the most difference.
When I first started racing, I was given an invaluable piece of advice by an experienced racer, and IMHO it applies to anything in life that you want to get better at. "If someone with a single-digit number (pro or championship level racer, pro recording/mastering engineer in our analogy) shares their approach to something - listen. Listen carefully."
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
Nice... I'm a heavy-cruiser pilot myself, so although I reflexively think you're slightly insane, I have much respect for the brass you've got clanging.
Totally agree and immersed myself in such things when I was a 'noob' myself. These days, it gets difficult sometimes and at some forums...
B
buzzard bass
Terminated
Great analogy mate, not all of us can, or want, to spend big bucks at the start. Interesting side note, set up had been mentioned. I was looking in the show us your studio thread and I see some studios with monster mixers, 3 or 4 computer screens, flash stuff, and their monitors are on their sides. Now I suppose some monitors are meant to be on their sides (only speakers I've ever seen that are meant to sit horizontal are a pair of Bose jobs I have for a home theater) but I know my M-Audio's specifically state that putting your monitors on their sides totally messes up the stereo imaging and screws up their sound. I'm guessing lesser equipment set up propelry will sound at least as good as more expensive gear set up incorrectly.
kcearl
I see deaf people
good analogy..I did quite a bit of track back in Europe
I remember going to Almeria a couple of years ago for a three days of track at the same time the BSB teams were doing some testing pre season.....two of my mates gave Naill McKenzie a good race, not sure he enjoyed it, on two pretty standard bikes...we also had a BSB champion from the 80's who was a friends boss come along in our group
Our bikes were a bit of a mismatch...we have never been the matching leathers brigade, and we only do it for fun...but he was one of the most humble and unassuming guys you could meet regardless of our stature (and most of the BSB guys knew him there).....even took my bike out for a session, which considering id just lost the steering damper after an off at the chicane was pretty brave of him....came back saying nice things about my bike, which lets face it...was an inferior piece of junk compare to the Gixxer 750 track bike he'd brought...we all got a shot on his...what a fucking gent
point? not every "pro" tells n00bs that the only way they'll learn is to buy the best and not every "pro" thinks that the n00b is taking, or will want to take this as far as them...thats what I learned, have fun, use what you can afford, and learn it well..and i listened..over quite a few pints
(this wasnt a dig at Massive, who genuinely comes across as pretty sincere)
kcearl
I see deaf people
btw LDS if you ever get a chance to run the nurburgring it will be something you'll never forget...just remember where you see crowds of spectators thats where the crashes happen, they aint there to cheer you 
Farview
Well-known member
Not really. Setting them up on their sides really just messes with the stereo imaging. The frequency response remains pretty well intact. So crap speakers set up properly might have better imaging than good speakers set up wrong, but the good ones will probably still be more accurate.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
I'm not sure that's not always gonna be true. If, for instance, you have a speaker with poor off axis response and so, has a pretty small 'sweet spot', you can really mess up how the freq's are getting to your ears.
As a single example ..... let's say you have a monitor where it's important to have the tweeter at or below ear level and it gets, let's say, 'dark' if listened to with the tweeter above ear level. Then you put them on the sides with tweeters facing outward ..... you'd effectively be hearing it from 'below' the tweeter and so, would be getting the darker sound.
Speakers commonally have lobes of coverage in the output where sitting in one place will hear more tweeter than another spot.
I'd think that with some speakers .... it could be a significant effect.
LDS
New member
Would love to some day. I have enough of a hard time remembering how to get around Road Atlanta, would probably need a GPS at Nurburgring.btw LDS if you ever get a chance to run the nurburgring it will be something you'll never forget...just remember where you see crowds of spectators thats where the crashes happen, they aint there to cheer you
I know all about the crowds of spectators at the crash spots from running off-road cross country races.
kcearl
I see deaf people
Would love to some day. I have enough of a hard time remembering how to get around Road Atlanta, would probably need a GPS at Nurburgring.
I know all about the crowds of spectators at the crash spots from running off-road cross country races.
yeah one lap is about 13 miles with something like 75 corners (two carousels)...we were all playing some Xbox car game to learn it months before
too stupid <facepalm>
B
buzzard bass
Terminated
Don't recall saying crap speakers versus good speakers. I said less expensive versus more expensive. I just don't get why people put all that money in to high end stuff then set it up wrong. Or build a really nice studio, have mics like Neumans and then record with a Squire guit. Bottom line, you can't polish a turd.
kcearl
I see deaf people
so if you dont have a really nice studio, neuman mics, but still record a squire its just a turd that no ones trying to polish?
B
buzzard bass
Terminated
It starts from the ground up mate. You can't start with a poor quality source then try to make it sound good after the fact.
My point was that I can't understand people spending a ton in one area then totally skimping in another. Or spending a ton then setting the stuff up wrong.
My point was that I can't understand people spending a ton in one area then totally skimping in another. Or spending a ton then setting the stuff up wrong.
kcearl
I see deaf people
get your point...but its wrong
buy what you cant afford, learn it...when it hinders you, upgrade....
simple operation
B
buzzard bass
Terminated
You know I think we're agreeing with each other in a weird way.
I think we're approaching this from opposite ends. But heading for the same result.
I think we're approaching this from opposite ends. But heading for the same result.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
While it's true that one shouldn't aim for this nor advise sloppiness and "couldn't care lessism", not only can you polish turds, you can make them good enough to eat ! Almost.
What I mean is that studio wizadry can achieve that. Not saying it's right or good. But it is possible.
What I don't understand is how people don't understand progression, learning and joy. When many start out, they may have dreamed of having one particular super bit of gear. They get it. They don't have the cash for big plunders in other departments or perhaps the present knowledge or experience to know that they may need this or that. The day Eddie Kramer or Bruce Swedien started engineering, they didn't know which kind of mics went best with which voices.....my point is that all these things take time and many {most ?} home recorders, from what I've picked up are more conscious of simply recording their stuff initially than all the 'big deal touring' that comes after.
That's the joy of progression. We do. We ponder. We learn. We re-learn. We progress.
Tremaine
Chancellor of the EOPA
that was a <mostly> good read.
thanks dudes.
thanks dudes.
L
Leroy Hotdogs Z
New member
get your point...but its wrong
hahaha now this i liked....
its like a "+1 for effort but -5 for impertinence"
On the idea of good/bad source material...
Recently invested in a couple of virtual instruments for my piano sounds.
But prior to that was just recording straight audio from my keyboard (Yamaha S-90es)
So in relation to a real piano sounds... it was turd.
but god damn if, after applying my eq's and reverbs and compressors and all this other crap, it wasnt the shiniest turd around.
The kind of turd you'd hang on the mantle proudly and swoon over like an insufferably smug new parent.
Then I had the idea of comparing it to some of my favourite recordings...
You guys remember that bit in "Close encounters of the 3rd kind" where he's making the replica mesa out of potato?
replace the mesa with a piano and the potato with turd... thats what i had done.
You can do wonders in mix and master... but a good source saves a lot of time and effort.
C
chops13
New member
Yes I also just bought a pair of KRK Rokit 8 and they are basically garbage. The bass is so coloured, muddy, boxy, boomy like someone banging the other side of a cardboard box. Absolutely terrible.
So.. I returned them for Yamaha HS80M. Bass is refined, tight, punchy, controlled, has great extension and balanced with the mids/treble. 100x better. Hopefully someone else doesn't have to go through this as well. Yamaha HS80M is where its at.
So.. I returned them for Yamaha HS80M. Bass is refined, tight, punchy, controlled, has great extension and balanced with the mids/treble. 100x better. Hopefully someone else doesn't have to go through this as well. Yamaha HS80M is where its at.
kcearl
I see deaf people
lol...indeed...KRK rokkit 8s are shite...thats why no one uses them or can get a decent mix out of them
and another lol for good measure
and another lol for good measure