Advice for looping audio files

[hd28vr]

I've written and recorded a bunch of songs by myself using Groove Agent, which is a software program by Steinberg, for the drum track. I'm sick of doing that. I can never find a style with the feel I want. It always changes/ruins my songs. I can't stand editing the resulting midi information to make a note louder or something. To me, this has been a very un-musical approach to making music. I can much more easily tap my hands on my desk and get what I'm going for. But I'm not a drummer and can't play well enough to press record and get a great drum track down from start to finish. And I can't stand playing along to a click track. I'd rather stick needles in my eyes. And I can't stand trying to find the right beats per minute before recording. I just want to sit down at some actual drums and play what I feel.

Here's what I'm thinking I want to try - and I'd love some input from you. I want to get a set of electronic drums (just for ease of recording), press record and play for a couple of minutes to get the basic beat I'm going for. Then trim the audio file to a small section of a few bars that sound tight. Then loop that short audio file for the length of the song, use that track as the basis for recording all the other instruments. I'd also like to be able to adjust the Bars within Cubase to exactly match the length of my trimmed audio file (to make it easier later to cut and paste harmony vocals for the choruses and stuff like that). Then I'll come back later and re-record the drums and use overdubbing to add fills. Not sure if my explanation here makes sense. If it does make sense, does this sound like a good or bad approach?

I use Cubase Essential and I don't see a menu choice for selecting an audio file within a track and looping it - other than copy, paste, paste, paste.

And I'm concerned that it might be difficult to find just the right places to trim the audio file so that it loops nicely. Any tips or suggestions? I'm sure this is a newbie question.

 

[dintymoore]

I wouldn't record them in audio because it's hard to mess with them. I'd record them in MIDI. You can set it up so that the volumes will only be in a certain range upon input or use Logical Edit to do them real fast.

I'd record them in MIDI and quantize them so you can snip the bars nicely.

If you have a part selected, say a 1 measure drum beat, and go to the Edit menu up above and select Repeat a dialog box will come up, that's how you make up parts fast. That's how it works on Cubase 4 anyways.

Make a song real fast: play a one bar measure, and repeat it 150 times then go over the track and add fills and cymbal crashes. Not the best but good enough for a guide track.

My opinion, as a drummer who has drum pads is that it's better and easier to enter the drum parts from a piano type keyboard than from the drum pads.

 

[hd28vr]

My opinion, as a drummer who has drum pads is that it's better and easier to enter the drum parts from a piano type keyboard than from the drum pads.

Thanks for the help.

It's interesting that you say it's better and easier to use a keyboard than drum pads. I've never "played drums" on a keyboard, but I would have thought it would be a challenge to play intricate/delicate parts on the hi-hat with one finger on a key.

Part of what I'm hoping to achieve is the satisfaction of playing drums with my muscles and sticks and pedals rather than a computer/mouse/spreadsheet/drop down list/command button/blue tooth phone - you know?

I don't use MIDI much (or not successfully yet!), so I'm not really super familiar with quantizing and editing. But I do like the sounds that Groove Agent has. So I'd like to also try recording to MIDI and playing it back through the "kits" in Groove Agent. I'm guessing that would sound better than the audio that comes out of an electronic drumset like the Alesis DM5 - or similar one in that price range.

I don't want to buy an electronic drumset if it's going to just end up in my graveyard of musical junk that I never really used.

 

[dintymoore]

... I would have thought it would be a challenge to play intricate/delicate parts on the hi-hat with one finger on a key...

There's lots of people who would disagree with me and say that an electronic kit was easier. As far as the hi hat thing... I generally record the drum parts slower than the final tempo. Most hihat parts are 1/8th notes, some 1/16ths... it's really not a biggie. Sometimes I'll record the hihat part separately. The key is learning how to "play in slow motion" and some people totally reject it and I understand that.

It's personal choice. I'd try laying down some beats on your computer. It's not that hard. Sometimes if the final tempo is 120 I might put the drums down at 90. I don't mind slowing things down like that and if you get used to it you can still have feel. It reminds me of how they make cartoons slowly and then speed them up.

The DM5 is good but if it's just for recording at home there's lots of great drum samples out there, I'd get the Alesis if I wanted to use it at gigs or setup with a set all the time. I have an old D5 and the sounds are a bit dull sounding but they are still musically good.

 

[Washburn100]

Before you give up on premade midi files, you are basically doing what has already been done but by professional drummers. Why not have a look at some of the midi patterns that are available. Check out the Groove Monkey packs and Toontrack has a bunch of midi packs.

Personally, I use EZ Drummer and I am yet to not find a decent pattern that suits what I'm working on. Just drag and drop into my DAW (Sonar) and roll out how many bars I need, drag and drop some fills and voila - Drum track!

 

[hd28vr]

Before you give up on premade midi files, you are basically doing what has already been done but by professional drummers. Why not have a look at some of the midi patterns that are available. Check out the Groove Monkey packs and Toontrack has a bunch of midi packs.

I can appreciate the nice sounds and chops of drum machine software, but it's not at all what I want. I'm moving away from that completely. For me, that "hey, that sounds like a professional drummer!" sound ruins the experience and the end result. I'd rather bang pots and pans out of time and make something real that is my song. I'm looking for technical approaches to help me more quickly and easily express myself, my exact feel and performance.

I have looped audio files of me playing drums in the past and it worked OK, but having acoustic drums in my basement is too loud. I want to be able to quickly jot down ideas at any time of day and modify them later - so that's why I'm thinking an electronic drum kit would be nice - even though I'd rather have the sound of drums and microphones.

Working only by myself, overdubbing all the parts, and with my limited musicianship, it's such a challenge to end up with feel. It ends up too composed and pre-planned, but I guess that's just how it is for me. Getting away from the drum machine thing I think is a step in the right direction and something I want to pursue.

 

[hd28vr]

I guess there are two things I want to try:

Play the drums and then easily set the tempo within the software to exactly match what I played - so the vertical bars in Cubase match up with the length of my short/looped wave file. (Versus setting the tempo in the software and then playing along to a click track.)

Know how to easily crop my 2 minute wave file down to 8 seconds (or whatever) - cutting it at just the right points to result in a repeated/loopable thing that will serve as an initial guide track.

 

[Washburn100]

OK, What about pads like a "Trigger Finger"? Just throwing out ideas.

I'm not familar with Cubase, I use Sonar, but I would think a lot of this is common between both. In Sonar, I would take a clip I made, edit to tase, than turn it into a groove clip. A groove clip will follow the tempo set in Sonar so now the clip follows my project exactly.

 

[hd28vr]

Thanks, Washburn100. I just googled the Trigger Finger. I think I'm more interested in a more full size electronic kit - I see a used Alesis DM5 with Surge Cymbals for $475 on Craigslist - something like that. I think it has both audio and MIDI output.

Seems like I've got my mind set on this approach and I just need to give it a try to see if it works or not.

 

[FunkDaddy]

I can appreciate the nice sounds and chops of drum machine software,
Getting away from the drum machine thing I think is a step in the right direction and something I want to pursue.

His point is that programs like EZDrummer and SD 2.0 (BFD I'm sure too, not familiar with the program) are full of MIDI grooves that are played by real drummers with great feel. If you open these grooves in a MIDI editor you will notice, even at the miniscule level they are not perfectly in time, they have life and feel.

It's not a drum machine. It's a studio pro playing drums on your recordings. I'm a drummer myself and have never been disappointed when working on a song with SD 2.0.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your planned approach, I just don't think you understand how good pre-recorded MIDI grooves can be.

 

[kcearl]

I play with an MPD24 for basic stuff..I record the kick and snare live and try not to quantisize it or change the velocity...then I either paint or play the cymbals and stuff in, remembering the basic rules about drummers only having two hands...its pretty real sounding, well to me...but I dont use acoustic samples that often

I think midi files will get you going...I started off taking parts away on midi files then adding my own..

thing is you will use them all eventually and poeple forget how integral the drums are to a song...a generic file may not do what you want it to...you can always manipulate it though and I still use fills sometimes, man they are almost impossible to work out if you are a non drummer


not trying to sway your mind just that there are a few options

 

[dintymoore]

... poeple forget how integral the drums are to a song...a generic file may not do what you want it to...

That's so true. Ideally every song should have a custom drum track made specifically for that song. The drum track should outline the song. It reminds me of what a conductor does in classical music.

Drummers are very aware form - start out small on the hi hat behind the vocals in the verses, go to the ride cymbal in the chorus, get busier with the cymbals in the solo, then back to the hihat when the vocals come back in, stuff like that. Plus they work with dynamics a lot (or they're supposed to).