My guitar is driving me f**king CRAZY!!

[TetraFish]

When you change tunings, you change the intonation, irrespective of the spring tension. If he didn't move the springs when he changed the tuning, then when he puts the tuning back the springs will be right. If he wants to stay with the alternative tuning, he should adjust the intonation at the saddles once he sets the bridge position where he wants it.

Ok, you're totally missing my point.

It played fine, he changed tunings, he changed the spring tension, now it's not right at a standard tuning. If in fact the intonation was correct it should still be correct if the spring tension allows the bridge to sit in the same position.

 

[muttley600]

Ok, you're totally missing my point.

It played fine, he changed tunings, he changed the spring tension, now it's not right at a standard tuning. If in fact the intonation was correct it should still be correct if the spring tension allows the bridge to sit in the same position.

You are all totally missing the point.

Setting up any guitar is a balancing act of all the factors discussed here. Change one you nearly always change some or all of the others. It is a process of shooting a little bit at a time.

The one exception to that and it is a very real problem here is to sort out buzziing you need to level the frets or if they are level, set the relief for the set of strings being used. The neck relief and action are the first thing to get right. Then the nut, then the bridge springs then the intonation. Rotate that order until it's well balanced. Job done.

 

[muttley600]

Ok, you're totally missing my point.

It played fine, he changed tunings, he changed the spring tension, now it's not right at a standard tuning. If in fact the intonation was correct it should still be correct if the spring tension allows the bridge to sit in the same position.

It is NEVER that simple.

 

[TetraFish]

It is NEVER that simple.

Granted that the string buzz is a totally different issue that needs to be addressed.

Screwing with the spring tension does not magically change the saddle positions. If the intonation was correct and he can get the springs set back to where they where before, the intonation will be correct.

You can't tell me that one change in the springs automatically requires the guitar to get a full set up.

 

[muttley600]

Granted that the string buzz is a totally different issue that needs to be addressed.

No, it is part off and almost certainly related to the other issues. It does need to be addressed before anything else.

Screwing with the spring tension does not magically change the saddle positions.

Yes it most certainly can..

If the intonation was correct and he can get the springs set back to where they where before, the intonation will be correct.

Maybe, maybe not. Many other things have changed and mechanics often trumps physics with these things. In fact nearly always when you are dealing with different material properties and stresses as large and as finitely tolerant as on a guitar.

You can't tell me that one change in the springs automatically requires the guitar to get a full set up.

I can tell you exactly what I told phil at the start of this thread. With the problems described and his level of understanding and experience, take it to a decent tech or luthier.

Judging by your understanding and comments so far I would give you the same advice.

 

[TetraFish]

No, it is part off and almost certainly related to the other issues. It does need to be addressed before anything else.

Yes it most certainly can..

Maybe, maybe not. Many other things have changed and mechanics often trumps physics with these things. In fact nearly always when you are dealing with different material properties and stresses as large and as finitely tolerant as on a guitar.

I can tell you exactly what I told phil at the start of this thread. With the problems described and his level of understanding and experience, take it to a decent tech or luthier.

Judging by your understanding and comments so far I would give you the same advice.

OK, we are talking in different terms here or something.

changing the springs will not change the saddle positions relative to the bridge. They are locked down with screws. It changes the position of all of the saddles relative to the nut which is exactly why it fucks the intonation.

Christ, I was just trying to help the guy out and save him a set up and you or anyone else won't convince me that loosening the springs and tightening them back will change "many other things". This is all assuming that is the only thing that he did and from his posts that's what I'm lead to believe.

 

[muttley600]

OK, we are talking in different terms here or something.

changing the springs will not change the saddle positions relative to the bridge. They are locked down with screws. It changes the position of all of the saddles relative to the nut which is exactly why it fucks the intonation.

Christ, I was just trying to help the guy out and save him a set up and you or anyone else won't convince me that loosening the springs and tightening them back will change "many other things". This is all assuming that is the only thing that he did and from his posts that's what I'm lead to believe.

You are not helping him out.

What the fuck does it matter if the saddles are locked down to the bridge block? The fixed point of the string and consequently the string length will change if you adjust the tension in the springs without anything to compensate. Having done that the intonation and possibly the neck relief is fucked resulting in the need for a good setup.

You can go ahead and offer more advice to phil and once he has followed it I can then charge him more to put it right. I don't really care, but I AM helping the guy out.

 

[ggunn]

You are not helping him out.

What the fuck does it matter if the saddles are locked down to the bridge block? The fixed point of the string and consequently the string length will change if you adjust the tension in the springs without anything to compensate. Having done that the intonation and possibly the neck relief is fucked resulting in the need for a good setup.

Not the neck relief. Changing the spring position by tightening or loosening the claw screws hasn't changed the tension in the springs once you have tuned the instrument; they are counterbalanced by the tension in the strings, which is a constant for a given tuning and string gauge. Put another way, as long as the bridge is truly floating you cannot change the tension in the springs without changing the tuning or the string gauge. OK, maybe the tension changes a tiny bit because it is a pivoting system and the angle at which the springs pull is infinitesimally different when the position is different, but that is splitting hairs on a flea's tiny hiney and doesn't affect the tension in the strings (or on the neck) at all.

 

[TetraFish]

You are not helping him out.

What the fuck does it matter if the saddles are locked down to the bridge block?

You said there position changes by adjusting the spring tension. I was pointing out that I was talking relative to the bridge not the nut.

The fixed point of the string and consequently the string length will change if you adjust the tension in the springs without anything to compensate. Having done that the intonation and possibly the neck relief is fucked resulting in the need for a good setup.

Yes, exactly what I was saying and if your a hair out your intonation is fucked. Barring any changes in humidy or some other external reason beyond the scope of this discussion the neck relief will be the same as it was if he can get that spring tension back to where it started. (edit: after reading ggunn's post he's right, same tuning should result in the same neck relief).

You can go ahead and offer more advice to phil and once he has followed it I can then charge him more to put it right. I don't really care, but I AM helping the guy out.

My advice certainly isn't going to hurt him or his guitar and it may just save him a set up.

 

[TetraFish]

Not the neck relief. Changing the spring position by tightening or loosening the claw screws hasn't changed the tension in the springs once you have tuned the instrument; they are counterbalanced by the tension in the strings, which is a constant for a given tuning and string gauge. Put another way, as long as the bridge is truly floating you cannot change the tension in the springs without changing the tuning or the string gauge. OK, maybe the tension changes a tiny bit because it is a pivoting system and the angle at which the springs pull is infinitesimally different when the position is different, but that is splitting hairs on a flea's tiny hiney and doesn't affect the tension in the strings (or on the neck) at all.

I think we're on the same page now. Just to clarify I agreed with everything you said in your other posts I was just simply stating that spending a little more time on that spring adjustment may save him a set up.

If not, yeah. take it to a guitar tech.

I don't mean to come off as a prick or combative here but I feel like I'm posting in english and it's coming out as french.

 

[ggunn]

You said there position changes by adjusting the spring tension. I was pointing out that I was talking relative to the bridge not the nut.

In the interest of getting onto the same page, you cannot change the tension in the springs of a floating bridge by adjusting the claw screws, only the rest position of the spring/bridge assembly. Well, it does change the tension temporarily, but when you tune the guitar it reverts to what it was.

 

[TetraFish]

In the interest of getting onto the same page, you cannot change the tension in the springs of a floating bridge by adjusting the claw screws, only the rest position of the spring/bridge assembly. Well, it does change the tension temporarily, but when you tune the guitar it reverts to what it was.

Right, I edited my other post after I read yours. So I agree that the tension should be the same because it's balanced between the springs and the strings, and that the altered rest position of the bridge is causing all of the strings intonation to be out.

So again my theory is that, assuming it was all good before he adjusted the springs and that he's using the same tuning, phils problem may be that the position of the bridge is just out a hair and maybe a micro turn on the screws and a re tune might just fix his intonation problem. Do you agree?

 

[ggunn]

Right, I edited my other post after I read yours. So I agree that the tension should be the same because it's balanced between the springs and the strings, and that the altered rest position of the bridge is causing all of the strings intonation to be out.

So again my theory is that, assuming it was all good before he adjusted the springs and that he's using the same tuning, phils problem may be that the position of the bridge is just out a hair and maybe a micro turn on the screws and a re tune might just fix his intonation problem. Do you agree?

It might, but he needs to set the rest point first and set the intonation to that rather than the other way round. The springs are on the long side of the lever; it takes a lot of change in spring position to make a little difference in bridge position.

 

[philbagg]

Lads, VP said I should put the guitar in a giant bath of acid.

I'll take his advice

 

[TetraFish]

It might, but he needs to set the rest point first and set the intonation to that rather than the other way round. The springs are on the long side of the lever; it takes a lot of change in spring position to make a little difference in bridge position.

OK, maybe it's my wording or something but that was my point. It Might. So what the hell give it a try, It can't hurt. At some point someone set that rest position and then set the intonation, maybe he can luck out and hit that position again.

The only point that I don't agree with in this whole thread is that simply changing spring tension for an alternate tuning and then changing it back will screw your guitars setup.

Anyway, I really didn't want to come across as a prick and I think this dead horse has been beat enough. Hope you get it sorted Phil.

 

[TetraFish]

Lads, VP said I should put the guitar in a giant bath of acid.

I'll take his advice

Or just try adjusting those springs a little more.

 

[Dogbreath]

Way ta go BaggDude....See what ya started?





my thoughts are that if you're not comfortable with the set ups, find a good tech that'll walk ya thru it and explain why he's doin it.

Then bring him the big jobs when they come around and some free word-of-mouth advertising when ya have a buddy that needs guitar work.

 

[muttley600]

Way ta go BaggDude....See what ya started?





my thoughts are that if you're not comfortable with the set ups, find a good tech that'll walk ya thru it and explain why he's doin it.

Then bring him the big jobs when they come around and some free word-of-mouth advertising when ya have a buddy that needs guitar work.

Would you stop talking sense in this thread. Save it for the cave. We are here to confuse teh fuck outta folks.

 

[muttley600]

Lads, VP said I should put the guitar in a giant bath of acid.

I'll take his advice

Don't forget the talc and remember VP's strings magically adjust the tension as they get older so be careful they don't take you're eye out.

Did you see my other question in the fuckheadphil thread? When you sending me that neck?

 

[Dogbreath]

Would you stop talking sense in this thread. Save it for the cave. We are here to confuse teh fuck outta folks.

Sorry...no idea what came over me.
Could be my constant abuse of talcum powder.