Live piano and garageband

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cedartree

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I'm playing an upright and recording in garageband using a Saffire Pro 24 and two mics -- an MXL 990 and a 991. The condenser is right above the strings of the piano and the cardioid is a few feet back from the piano to capture ambiance. I have the mixing knobs on the Saffire set at around 6 to 8 (I've been playing with these up and down) and on the software mixer provided by Saffire, I have it set to zero. Basically, I'm trying to set the levels so that it's as loud as possible without getting in the red. I then mix down to an mp3 in garageband (I used a fairly reasonable focusrite software compressor within garageband). Problem is that it sounds okay but sounds too "small" and soft. If I play another commercial mp3 song, it sounds a lot louder at the same volume setting. If I increase the mixing levels though I think I'll get too high and get into the red.

Suggestions on how to not see the mixing level too high and yet have the final recording be loud enough?

Thanks, from a newbie!
 
Another thought

Another way to ask this question is, can I increase the volume of the recording in garageband without overdriving the recording? Someone please help this newbie! Thanks!
 
Do you have the means to increase gain on the input?

I had this problem with my electric guitar. If you use a virtual pre-amp (VST) on the input strip you will get a stronger instrument sound. Keep your input in the green (you're doing fine there). Mix everything fairly low (around -12dB) to give you enough headroom to boost the Piano if it's still weak. If you want more physical volume at the end of it all, you can master the whole mix up to 0dB using a compressor. This will get you some more 'oomph' but will keep hold of the peaks to stop them clipping the red.

I'm still learning too but I hope this helps. Someone else might have some better advice.

Dr. V
 
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cedartree said:
Another way to ask this question is, can I increase the volume of the recording in garageband without overdriving the recording? Someone please help this newbie! Thanks!
Click to expand...

Or put another way, you probably don't need to. Your recording volume is probably fine as it is but you can use a limiter to increase the volume in the mix, after the recording without the spikes associated with overload.

Dr. V
 
Thanks

Thanks Dr. V -- does anyone use garageband specifically and can suggest exactly how to do what you're suggesting (like which compressor to use, etc.) or can suggest software that would be good for primarily recording live piano and/or live upright bass? THANKS!
 
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Garageband and I don't use a Macintosh - but I assume it works like any other (respectable) DAW? In that you have mixer strips, with inserts? You grab hold of a limiter or a compressor from the VST/DX folder and apply it to one of the inserts - either for the instrument you want to boost or to the entire mix (in which case, bung it in the master track).

Settings you will have to research and play with. Each one, be it due to brand or model, will behave slightly differently. If no compressor came bundled with Garagband, then you can go online and download something for Mac platform. Some cost money - but I believe others are completely free.

VSTs like this carry many presets, which make good starting models for compression. Start swapping presets at first, until you get a feel for what the compressor is doing. Then later you'll be able to set it up for your own needs.

Basically, there's a gain control and a ceiling puller-downer thingy. You can lower the ceiling to contain the peaks, while pushing up the gain (pre-gain or output) to get more sound.

I can't suggest exactly what to use or how to use it, for what each signal needs will be known only to you. The best advice I can give for now is, once loaded, look for a preset that offers roughly what you're hoping to achieve and then play around with the controls until it sounds right.

Hope this helps some. Sorry if I like I'm explaining for dummies but I have no idea what your experience is so far.

Dr. V
 
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In GarageBand there's a single band compressor and multiband compressor. Personally I like to keep it simple and stick with the single band, but the multi-band opens up some possibilities. But that's more advanced stuff, I'd say.

In the single band compressor (the one that's automatically set for every track in GarageBand), tame the dynamics of the recording with the ratio, and the overall volume with the gain. That's pretty much it. Mess around with it and you'll figure it out in no time.

Also, don't underestimate the value of a little equalizing. GarageBand's Visual EQ is nice, simple and effective, and also has a frequency analyzer so you can see what frequencies you might have to bump.

You should post some recordings of your own, and some recordings you'd want your recording to sound like.
 
cedartree said:
Basically, I'm trying to set the levels so that it's as loud as possible without getting in the red.
Click to expand...
There is your first problem. Don't record that hot. Without going into a long explaination:
Mix your Garage Band tracks so the master meter reads about -10 on the peaks (all tracks combined). Before recording piano, set the piano channel fader to 0 (unity, no gain or cut). Now adjust the recording trim/input gain on your preamp so the sound of the piano coming off of the mic balances with the other mixed tracks. You record it at a volume that will require little or no fader movement afterwards to place it in the mix.

I know it seems counter-intuitive to bring the gain (way) down. But trust me.

I then mix down to an mp3 in garageband
Click to expand...
Do not do this ever. Create a full-quality wav (aiff?) first and then create an MP3 from that. You want an uncompressed version of your song to exist somewhere.
Problem is that it sounds okay but sounds too "small" and soft. If I play another commercial mp3 song, it sounds a lot louder at the same volume setting.
Click to expand...
Do not compare audio at the same volume setting; Whether it is your audio Vs a finished pro CD or a single guitar track Vs the same guitar track after EQ processing. Our hearing puts a ton of stock in how loud something is. So much so that we cannot compare any other aspect of two sounds if one sounds louder than the other. So you eliminate the volume difference. Listen to one. Move the volume knob until the second plays at a loudness equal to the first. Then listen to the second.

That will let you truly compare what piano is bigger, bolder, etc.

If I increase the mixing levels though I think I'll get too high and get into the red.

Suggestions on how to not see the mixing level too high and yet have the final recording be loud enough?
Click to expand...
It is a tangled mess of running a finished mix through stuff like limiters, clippers, compressors, etc. I avoid the entire thing and just live with a recording that requires more volume from the listener's knob. It sounds better that way if you ask me.

But if you are going to squash for volume, your best chance will be to take the advice I gave above about recording level and volume-matching.
 
cedartree said:
suggest exactly how to do what you're suggesting (like which compressor to use, etc.) THANKS!
Click to expand...

So I just took a look at the link Dr. V posted and it returned this:

•the AUPeakLimiter is a compressor/limiter effect that allows you to set the maximum volume. Useful for controlling clipping.

For simplicity, If you want more loudness, use the on-board limiter. When you do this, try to use it sparingly or you'll lose the natural dynamics. Do it before converting to Mp3. In the end, your wave form should not look like one big solid block. It should ebb & flow with the dynamics of your music, minus the spikes.

:)
 
bunt said:
For simplicity, If you want more loudness, use the on-board limiter. When you do this, try to use it sparingly or you'll lose the natural dynamics. Do it before converting to Mp3. In the end, your wave form should not look like one big solid block. It should ebb & flow with the dynamics of your music, minus the spikes.
Click to expand...

What is with this epidemic of "kill the dynamics, but leave the dynamics"? Music without the spikes is a block that does not ebb and flow. Music that ebbs and flows has spikes.

I know it is not politically correct to say "pancake your music", and I know it is not politically correct to say "leave the limiter and clipping on the sidelines", but it gets a little silly.
 
Chibi Nappa said:
What is with this epidemic of "kill the dynamics, but leave the dynamics"? Music without the spikes is a block that does not ebb and flow. Music that ebbs and flows has spikes.
.
Click to expand...

Epidemic? :eek: That seems a little melodramatic. I get your point, but I'm not so sure I totally agree with the way you stated it. Music can absolutely ebb & flow without spikes, and dynamics can indeed be maintained through compression. Keep in mind when I used the term "spike", I meant just that. I'm not talking about the "hills & valleys" of the wave form...
 
bunt said:
So I just took a look at the link Dr. V posted and it returned this:

•the AUPeakLimiter is a compressor/limiter effect that allows you to set the maximum volume. Useful for controlling clipping.

For simplicity, If you want more loudness, use the on-board limiter. When you do this, try to use it sparingly or you'll lose the natural dynamics. Do it before converting to Mp3. In the end, your wave form should not look like one big solid block. It should ebb & flow with the dynamics of your music, minus the spikes.

:)
Click to expand...

I can think of a couple brick-wall limited albums that say otherwise *ahem*Hi, Metallica!*cough, cough*.

You want to use compression to control your peaks, to shape them. You don't want to use it to eliminate them.
 
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