Random recording pattern question

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kidkage

kidkage

Bored of Canada
I've noticed the typical recording pattern is a scratch track of guitar then drums then guitar again then bass then vox.
I've wondered why people dont just record the actual guitar parts firsts (not leads obviously) and insted record a scratch track then do the actual guitar parts after they do drums?

Also- I need to invest in a metronome- any recommendations?
 
I thought the normal pattern was drums first with maybe a scratch DI guitar because you don't have the room or the mics to record drums and an amped guitar at the same time.
My personal favorite is the whole band at once.
My bassist always lays down his bass track first when he's demoing up something he's written.
But, if that is the normal pattern,
if you're recording live drums, and you're in a low-budget home-recording type situation, there's gonna be some lumps and rough patches on your drum sound from the start. Stuff you're gonna have to work around.
Since the room often plays such a big part in the sound of the drums (whereas the homerecced guitar is often close miked and mostly just amp sound), I would assume that it would be:
1)Scratch guitar as rhythmic guide for drums,
2)...<Drums>...
3)Actual guitar part with the drum sound pretty much in place so you can hear what sounds good around it.
I'm just guessing here, but if you need a reasoning behind that particular order then, there you go.



Also,
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Metronome+for+sale

I'd recommend one that works.:D
 
I think The Cancers is pretty much right on here. The other thought is that a lot of home recordists use drum machines or such things instead of live drums. It's much easier to program drums AROUND something instead of doing them first. But again, I have to agree with TC if you can record the whole band (or at least the rhythm section) live, that's the way to go.
 
I usually do a scratch guitar and vocals because that gives a good feel for the song and as a one man band I don't have the option of a whole band recording first.
With that scratch idea down it's much easier to see if what I was thinking for Keys, bass, drums and so on will fit together or if I need to re think or rework some parts.

I tried building a drum track first once but when I came to put a guitar track over it I found the groove wasn't quite right and I ended up having to rebuild the drums over a scratch guitar track in the end anyway

As for a metronome I used the cheapest one I could find at the music store about five years ago (It was a Korg), it's portable and keeps me in time when I practice and that's all I need. There are now phone apps that can be used as metronomes too which are probably even cheaper.
Come recording time the DAW metronome will be providing the click track anyway.

Of course YMMV
 
nate_dennis said:
It's much easier to program drums AROUND something instead of doing them first.
Click to expand...

True. Which is why I do my drums.....last. I record all the other tracks to a simple drum machine beat, and then play my drums after everything else is done.
 
If you have a drummer and a guitar player why not just isolate the two but put the guitar in the monitor mix and only record the drums. If there are enough A/D channels then go ahead and record the guitar at the same time.

If your laying down drums first without a click it is good to have the drummer click into the track with his drum sticks to give the other instruments a heads up on when to start.

Also make damn sure the tempo is correct on the drum tracks before moving on with laying down the other instuments. I have been there. The drums were broken down packed up and gone. Then we start recording guitar and I am doing take after take to make the tempo match.
 
We usually do scratch tracks first. We try to get em right though. That way if they are good enough we can still use em. If they aren't good enough we can figure out why before we lay down the final tracks.
 
gcapel said:
Also make damn sure the tempo is correct on the drum tracks before moving on with laying down the other instuments. I have been there. The drums were broken down packed up and gone. Then we start recording guitar and I am doing take after take to make the tempo match.
Click to expand...

Yeah that sounds familiar. Not fun.:(
 
Which is why you do a scratch guitar track to a drum machine or metronome click track first. Then the drummer matches that to keep an even tempo. Also, with a scratch guitar track its easier to tell where in the song you are (verse, chorus line 2, etc), rather than just from the drum part.
 
For me it depends on the situation.When i was in a band and we recorded we always played guitar and drums together.I kept the guitar turned down a bit and only recorded the drums with minimal bleed through on the guitars.Then guitars or bass were recorded,and vox last.

Of course back then we were recording onto a portable digital 8 track and done several board recordings during the writing process.

Now i'm not in a band and most of my songs were written with a drum machine.Mostly i came up with some riffs and found beats to match and built the drum track.Then recorded guitars & bass.

Since stepping into the DAW world,i've been re-recording a lot of my songs with drum loops but it's still the same,building the drum tracks,then going from there.

For me recording is used as a song writing tool just to get my ideas down.Then when i'm content it all gets redone.
 
Lately I've been doing drums, scratch guitar and scratch bass at the same time. I put an old Silvertone guitar amp close-miced out in the garage, play bass through my Ampeg's lo-Z out into the board, mic up the drums then we all monitor through headphones with a click track playing.
 
I've done it a few ways, but lately it starts with me laying down a vocal + guitar scratch track...then my go-to drummer comes over and plays drums against that....then I do the rest of the tracks afterwards.

Since I always use a click track from the beginning of every session (even when the drummer does his thing)...it probably matters not what goes first, second etc...though I do find that playing the other instruments against the real drums is more interesting than playing them against just a click....
..but then the drummer will say the same thing, that he likes playing against all the other instruments instead of just a scratch vocal + guitar… :D ....so we make do.

Ideally, you would track at least drums, bass and rhythm instruments at the same time (even against scratch tracks)...but when you work alone most of the time (like I do)...that's not possible.

I could still lay down some keeper guitar tracks and vocals and THEN have the drummer play, but usually he's only available on moment's notice, so I'm often rushing just to lay down a few scratch tracks before he comes over, as I don't necessarily plan weeks ahead what songs I'm going to be working on next. :D
 
mjbphotos said:
Which is why you do a scratch guitar track to a drum machine or metronome click track first. Then the drummer matches that to keep an even tempo. Also, with a scratch guitar track its easier to tell where in the song you are (verse, chorus line 2, etc), rather than just from the drum part.
Click to expand...

Most of the drummers I have recorded cannot play with a click. It just confuses the hell out of them. If your a homerecording mofo then you can get use to playing with a click I imagine because of having the time alone and equipment to do it.

I will also add that not playing with a click can maybe give the song some character as long as its not overboard out of tempo. Kind of the same idea as "mixing out of the box".
 
gcapel said:
Most of the drummers I have recorded cannot play with a click. It just confuses the hell out of them. If your a homerecording mofo then you can get use to playing with a click I imagine because of having the time alone and equipment to do it.

I will also add that not playing with a click can maybe give the song some character as long as its not overboard out of tempo. Kind of the same idea as "mixing out of the box".
Click to expand...

The drummer I use was initially not sure about the click...though he had recorded with other guys once before with a click, so it wasn't a total issue for him.

The way we do it and it works fine for him and still allows him to add his own "feel' to it, is once the click counts off and the song starts, I will lower the click in his cans so it's way back, and it isn’t "driving" his playing, but yet he can still hear it enough to use as a reference if he so chooses.
 
Another thing that helps with a drummer who's just really uncomfortable with a click (and this is way off topic from where the thread started so, you know, Hijacked, bitches!) is to replace your click samples in the DAW with sampled drums.
I had great results just last weekend with my band's drummer. Just couldn't keep with the click track for the duration of a three minute song. So we spent about twenty minutes finding a kick and a snare sample he was comfortable with and replaced the "one" of the metronome with the kick and the "two, three, four" with the snare.
He nailed it first try after that.
Don't know why it worked and YMMV, but it's worth trying with a drummer who just can't follow a click.
 
kidkage said:
I've noticed the typical recording pattern is a scratch track of guitar then drums then guitar again then bass then vox.
I've wondered why people dont just record the actual guitar parts firsts (not leads obviously) and insted record a scratch track then do the actual guitar parts after they do drums?
Click to expand...

Just out of interest, where have you noticed this as typical ? I'm not certain that it is typical. I would imagine that different people in different scenarios do different things. Up until very recently, my initial tracking would usually be bass/drums, guitar/drums, bass/percussion, and guitar/percussion and the intention was always that these were keepers. Unfortunately it didn't always work that way, with occasional double tracks, additions, touch ups, revamps ! But that was the intention. If something felt good on the first take, there was never a "right, let's do that again !" mentality.
I still do it that way, but recently, I've been using the guitar or bass as scratch tracks with the drums or percussion as keepers. The thinking behind that is to work on guitar and bass sounds a bit more. But often those initial takes will stay anyway because I find myself liking them and with a bit of jiggery pokery, can alter their sound.
 
The Cancers said:
Another thing that helps with a drummer who's just really uncomfortable with a click (and this is way off topic from where the thread started so, you know, Hijacked, bitches!) is to replace your click samples in the DAW with sampled drums.
I had great results just last weekend with my band's drummer. Just couldn't keep with the click track for the duration of a three minute song. So we spent about twenty minutes finding a kick and a snare sample he was comfortable with and replaced the "one" of the metronome with the kick and the "two, three, four" with the snare.
He nailed it first try after that.
Don't know why it worked and YMMV, but it's worth trying with a drummer who just can't follow a click.
Click to expand...

I Find that works a treat. I just turn the metronome off create a midi track with my drum vst loaded, use the drum editor to create the rhythm. snare, snare, snare, hi-hat w/e and play over that. Keeps me in time far better can it gives me more of a free feeling rather than the clinical feel you get from a metronome.

I don't think there is a 'typical' way for recording. Although 9 times out of 10 it will be the rhythm section w/e instrument/s that make it up. It very much depends on the song, and whos doing it. Like alot of people on here we work with our selves so there is only the ability to do one thing at once. I usually record a scratch guitar track then start the build the drums around that (vst). For drums I usually bang out what I want on the key board and then get them put more in time afterwards. Means I can get the human feel to them without messing with velocities forever. After that I will record everything over the drums as it is much easier to play to the final drum track then it is to move the drum track around everything else.

There has been times where Ive been doing some practice programming more complex drum parts and written a song to the drums through inspiration.

To stop my rambeling.

As a rule of thumb anything that is a main piece of the rhythm section usually goes first with the cream on top.
 
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