Another Clueless Newbie - ProTools/Digidesign vs. Ableton?

[dirimini]

This is my first post, and I'm going to admit off the bat that I am not terribly technologically savvy.

Several years ago I started to do PC-based home recording using Cubase; while I was able to do basic recording (getting audio tracks down), I never really used it for more than a "sketchbook," probably partially due to the fact that I was so overwhelmed by all of the functions. I also had several instances where I spent hours and hours, without success, trying to get something specific to work, and I think I just got frustrated and gave up.

Fast forward several years, and I'm looking to start some home recording again, and feeling totally out of the loop. I had pretty much decided on getting the Digidesign MBox w/ProTools set up, because it seemed to be what most people were using - but then I found out I was eligible to get Ableton Live 8 at a very discounted price, because I'm a university professor. A couple of my students also said that they used Ableton, and thought it was great.

So, I bought Ableton, but after having read a few things, I'm wondering if I made the right choice - and before opening the box (meaning, I won't be able to return it), I'm wondering if anyone has any input. Basically, the reason I chose Ableton is because a few people told me that it's great for making loops and sampling, etc., which is part of what I want to do. Very generally speaking, I'd like to be able to record audio (vocals, acoustic instruments) AND use loops/samples, AND use some MIDI (although I admit that MIDI recording was always very difficult for me with Cubase, so I just avoided it).

I don't know whether or not this is enough information for anyone to proffer any advice, but any input is welcome.

Thanks in advance.

 

[t_muraoka]

Ableton is great for loops and samples but it's not really the right tool for recording and it'll drive you mad if you have experience with a proper DAW.

I use Ableton for composing songs (using loops) but do recording in Reaper. The two apps can be connected using ReWire (all the major apps support this), although I prefer to use Reaper's own system (ReaRoute) since it lets me load VST's in Ableton.

 

[dirimini]

Thanks for the input.

Someone told me - and this might be what you're suggesting, in general - that I could record (audio) using ProTools, do loops with Ableton, and then import the Ableton tracks into ProTools. But I worry about this for two reasons:

1. It seems complicated - and the reason I stopped doing home recording last time, was that I got so overwhelmed by the (difficult) technology, that I forgot that my main purpose was to write music!

2. It's expensive - all together, I'd be close to $900 for just the software (using both the MBox w/ProTools, and Ableton).

I'm wondering - are there any freeware or low-cost options for software which does a good job with loops? Maybe that might be the best bet - go with the MBox set up, and then get some (cheap/free) ancillary software to do the loops?

 

[kcearl]

Thanks for the input.

Someone told me - and this might be what you're suggesting, in general - that I could record (audio) using ProTools, do loops with Ableton, and then import the Ableton tracks into ProTools. But I worry about this for two reasons:

1. It seems complicated - and the reason I stopped doing home recording last time, was that I got so overwhelmed by the (difficult) technology, that I forgot that my main purpose was to write music!

2. It's expensive - all together, I'd be close to $900 for just the software (using both the MBox w/ProTools, and Ableton).

I'm wondering - are there any freeware or low-cost options for software which does a good job with loops? Maybe that might be the best bet - go with the MBox set up, and then get some (cheap/free) ancillary software to do the loops?

Ableton Intro does nearly everything the full featured programme does for $99

And depending on the M box interface your initial $900 can be halved for everything together

Many musicians use two DAWs, myself included. Once you learn one the transferring of knowledge in learning another can be pretty straight forward.

As an Ableton user I can say you will definitely not find a free pogramme that comes close to what it can do, that being said there is no reason you cant make loops in Pro Tools, it doesnt have Abletons intuitive workflow in this realm, but it can still be done pretty easily..

If I were you Id try to demo as much as possible, if you're hearts set on m-box PT then buy it, you can demo any Ableton product for 30 days, by that time you should be able to figure out if you can achieve what you want in one DAW or that Ableton offers too much to ignore

 

[kcearl]

Ableton is great for loops and samples but it's not really the right tool for recording and it'll drive you mad if you have experience with a proper DAW.

I use Ableton for composing songs (using loops) but do recording in Reaper. The two apps can be connected using ReWire (all the major apps support this), although I prefer to use Reaper's own system (ReaRoute) since it lets me load VST's in Ableton.

Not true...I use Ableton mainly in the arrangement view, I have experience with Sonar which works as most of the big guys and prefer Ableton for almost everything...

Ableton is as much a "proper" DAW as any other...the inability to use it as such says more about the user than the software..

Reaper is a fine option as well saying that.

 

[dirimini]

Thanks very much, kcearl. That's very helpful.

My reasons for leaning toward the MBox setup are twofold: first, I don't have to worry about getting an interface that's definitely going to work well with the software, because it's all bundled together, and second, ProTools is used so widely, that it might be helpful if I ever need to go into a studio, and want to bring my data with me. The second is not a super-high priority, I admit, as I have no plans of going into a studio any time soon; but on some level, I'm swayed by the fact that so many people use PT, and it might be good to have that knowledge.

I had thought of getting the Ableton light version as you suggested - it's good to know that it can accomplish much of what the full-featured version can. Again, I'm trying to keep my priorities straight here - that is, writing music is paramount - and not get mired in spending 95% of my time on technology, and 5% of my time on actual composition. Of course, I understand that with digital recording, knowing how to exploit the technology is part of the composition process - making new sounds, timbres, etc. But the light version might well give me enough of what I need, without overwhelming me with features I don't need.

In the end, I have to tell myself not to get paralyzed by obsessing about making the "right" decision, and realize that some of it's going to be trial and error - learning from "wrong" choices.

(BTW - "I see deaf people" made me laugh)

 

[kcearl]

Thanks very much, kcearl. That's very helpful.

My reasons for leaning toward the MBox setup are twofold: first, I don't have to worry about getting an interface that's definitely going to work well with the software, because it's all bundled together, and second, ProTools is used so widely, that it might be helpful if I ever need to go into a studio, and want to bring my data with me. The second is not a super-high priority, I admit, as I have no plans of going into a studio any time soon; but on some level, I'm swayed by the fact that so many people use PT, and it might be good to have that knowledge.

I had thought of getting the Ableton light version as you suggested - it's good to know that it can accomplish much of what the full-featured version can. Again, I'm trying to keep my priorities straight here - that is, writing music is paramount - and not get mired in spending 95% of my time on technology, and 5% of my time on actual composition. Of course, I understand that with digital recording, knowing how to exploit the technology is part of the composition process - making new sounds, timbres, etc. But the light version might well give me enough of what I need, without overwhelming me with features I don't need.

In the end, I have to tell myself not to get paralyzed by obsessing about making the "right" decision, and realize that some of it's going to be trial and error - learning from "wrong" choices.

(BTW - "I see deaf people" made me laugh)

I think pro tools is a good choice....its definitely is the most common one you'll find out there in studios

But you will have to invest sometime in the software, which you seem to be pretty aware of..

If time is a constraint Id suggest tutorials...there are plenty on youtube and magazines like MusicTech have walk through editions on specific DAWs..

I bought and downloaded a complete Ableton video tutorial for $2.99 (yup they had some mad sale on) from Steamworks audio....its a little investment but sometimes these are far quicker and easier to absorb than dry manuals, in fact they always are

We all get caught in the process rather than the production of music, its a pitfall all homerecorders face at some point I guess..but if you map what you want out of your project and have a clear idea on arrangement and the final product you're looking for then it will help you not end up with a folder of 53 unfinished songs <whistle>


BTW I was shocked how little Ableton Intro differs from the full version...I bought Live after having the Lite version come with a keyboard...if Id held on there is nothing I use Live for just now that Intro wouldn't have covered

You will find a huge amount of knowledge on this site and people will always help and steer you in the right direction, just be prepared to go through 8 pages of infighting sometimes


Welcome aboard

 

[dirimini]

BTW I was shocked how little Ableton Intro differs from the full version...I bought Live after having the Lite version come with a keyboard...if Id held on there is nothing I use Live for just now that Intro wouldn't have covered

You will find a huge amount of knowledge on this site and people will always help and steer you in the right direction, just be prepared to go through 8 pages of infighting sometimes

Wow, that's good to know - because if you, as someone who has far more experience than I, have not exhausted the capabilities of the "lite" version, I can't imagine that it wouldn't far exceed my needs (and at about 1/4 of the price).

But I have a couples of questions: First, looking at this comparison chart (http://www.ableton.com/pages/live_8/comparison_chart/live_intro), it indicates that the intro version doesn't have a "looper" - and I was under the impression that that's one of the main reasons to buy Ableton, to be able to do looping. Or is the "looper" something different?

Second, one of the reviews on one of the music store sites notes that you "can't save what you record" - could this possibly be true??!

Thanks for all the other advice, and for the welcome; again, all very helpful. Let's hope I keep the momentum going, and actually do it this time!

 

[kcearl]

Wow, that's good to know - because if you, as someone who has far more experience than I, have not exhausted the capabilities of the "lite" version, I can't imagine that it wouldn't far exceed my needs (and at about 1/4 of the price).

But I have a couples of questions: First, looking at this comparison chart (http://www.ableton.com/pages/live_8/comparison_chart/live_intro), it indicates that the intro version doesn't have a "looper" - and I was under the impression that that's one of the main reasons to buy Ableton, to be able to do looping. Or is the "looper" something different?

Second, one of the reviews on one of the music store sites notes that you "can't save what you record" - could this possibly be true??!

Thanks for all the other advice, and for the welcome; again, all very helpful. Let's hope I keep the momentum going, and actually do it this time!

No the looper is actually a software version of a guitar pedal called a looper, and although quite a neat peace of software, completely unnecessary when making loops

You cant save what you record when using a demo programme to try it out but once purchased its fully functional

 

[Madizon]

i think its personal choice

i have always used Cubase and still do. I predominantly work with samples / loops and Cubase performs well for it (yeh, there's other programs out there that may do it slightly better / easier but Cubase is great).
its very easy repeating loops etc, so long as you set the project up correctly at the start you're fine.

Plus, its a great interface to record too.

like i said, its personal preference and I know Cubase well due to years of use, but in the end I wouldnt have used it that long if it didnt do everything I wanted it to do.

i recommend Cubase

 

[dirimini]

i think its personal choice

i have always used Cubase and still do. I predominantly work with samples / loops and Cubase performs well for it (yeh, there's other programs out there that may do it slightly better / easier but Cubase is great).
its very easy repeating loops etc, so long as you set the project up correctly at the start you're fine.

Plus, its a great interface to record too.

like i said, its personal preference and I know Cubase well due to years of use, but in the end I wouldnt have used it that long if it didnt do everything I wanted it to do.

i recommend Cubase

I still have my (OLD) Cubase software; wonder if I should just give it a try again? But it's probably (definitely) a dinosaur now.

I appreciate the input, and thanks for letting me know it's loop/sample-capable. I remember one instance where a friend of mine was trying to help me make a loop, and it took us HOURS - but I'm guessing, according to what you say, that this had less to do with the program, and more to do with my/our ineptitude.

 

[dirimini]

No the looper is actually a software version of a guitar pedal called a looper, and although quite a neat peace of software, completely unnecessary when making loops

You cant save what you record when using a demo programme to try it out but once purchased its fully functional

Thanks for the clarification; and "duh" on my part!