Scale Length - 24.75" VS 25.5"

[miroslav]

I know the basic differences of feel and tone...but I was curious to hear from our luthier crew as to why one is chosen over the other...and also looking at it from a mathematical perspective and intonation perspective, is one scale length "better" than another...???

I even see some guitars with 25" scale length...which kinda split the difference of the two most common ones.

I'm mainly referring to typical 6-string electric guitars...I'm sure there are some other scale lengths used for other styles of guitars.

 

[muttley600]

I know the basic differences of feel and tone...but I was curious to hear from our luthier crew as to why one is chosen over the other...and also looking at it from a mathematical perspective and intonation perspective, is one scale length "better" than another...???

I even see some guitars with 25" scale length...which kinda split the difference of the two most common ones.

I'm mainly referring to typical 6-string electric guitars...I'm sure there are some other scale lengths used for other styles of guitars.

Its really down to personal preference. A longer string length is preferred by many who play in drop tunings. There are no major considerations as far as intonation goes, both can work well.

If I haven't been asked for a specific scale length I go with 25"

 

[Milnoque]

In my experience a longer scale length responds better for a heavy handed player. Shorter scales have an advantage for string bending. Both of these characteristics can be compensated for with string gauge.

Let your fingers and ears decide.

 

[miroslav]

If I haven't been asked for a specific scale length I go with 25"

So then there is NO mathematical advantage to any particular scale length?


It's just that I notice some guitar manufacturers make ALL their models only in one scale...yet others will make models in both. *shurg*

Most of my guitars are 24.75"...but I have some at 25.5"...and don't notice a lot of difference. The longer scale is a pinch "tighter" feeling/sounding, that's it.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I WAY prefer 25.5.
A 24.75 scale makes the 10's I normally use feel too 'rubbery'. I go up a gauge to 11's for my 24.75 scale gits but then that's just a little bit too heavy of a gauge for what I want it to feel like.
I guess I could go for some custom gauge but that's way too much trouble so I use the 10's ..... too rubbery .... the 11's ..... too bend resistant.
I just end up going with my 25.5 gits and the others mostly stay in the case.

 

[Zaphod B]

Zaphod's tiny hands prefer shorter scale lengths, but I can get around on the longer ones OK.

 

[muttley600]

So then there is NO mathematical advantage to any particular scale length?

None at all.

It's just that I notice some guitar manufacturers make ALL their models only in one scale...yet others will make models in both. *shurg*

Most of my guitars are 24.75"...but I have some at 25.5"...and don't notice a lot of difference. The longer scale is a pinch "tighter" feeling/sounding, that's it.

Historical and a question of tooling/setup costs.

 

[ggunn]

So then there is NO mathematical advantage to any particular scale length?

Correct.

It's just that I notice some guitar manufacturers make ALL their models only in one scale...yet others will make models in both. *shrug*

There are manufacturing/mass production advantages to making them all the same or with only a couple of options. If you build a guitar completely by hand, you can make the scale length anything you want, but you'll have to calculate the position of every fret accordingly.

Most of my guitars are 24.75"...but I have some at 25.5"...and don't notice a lot of difference. The longer scale is a pinch "tighter" feeling/sounding, that's it.

The longer scale means a higher string tension for a given pitch and string gauge.

 

[miroslav]

The longer scale means a higher string tension for a given pitch and string gauge.

Right...I knew that...I just wondered if the "math" was better for one or the other.

There are manufacturing/mass production advantages to making them all the same or with only a couple of options. If you build a guitar completely by hand, you can make the scale length anything you want, but you'll have to calculate the position of every fret accordingly.

Yeah...I can see why the tooling cost would be less for mass produced...but even some "boutique" manufacturers seem to pick just one - like Duesenberg.

 

[muttley600]

Right...I knew that...I just wondered if the "math" was better for one or the other.




Yeah...I can see why the tooling cost would be less for mass produced...but even some "boutique" manufacturers seem to pick just one - like Duesenberg.

Many custom builders buy there fretboards pre-slotted. Many have also tooled up and built jigs that work for one scale length. Most can and will do different scale lengths if you ask them.

 

[lpdeluxe]

I've never been happy with 25.5" scales. I gave away the one Strat I had because of that -- it sounded fine, but it never felt right. Now I play Gibsons with 24.6" scale and I am happy. I string them with .011s (SG) and .012s (335).

For what it's worth, Gibson arch top guitars (other than the 335 and variations) mostly have the 25.5" scale.

 

[ggunn]

Right...I knew that...I just wondered if the "math" was better for one or the other.

Well, guitars were being made long before calculators were invented. The math is just a series of ratios which don't depend on the absolute length of the scale.

There may be legacy reasons (like with railroad rail spacing) why the "standard" scale lengths are what they are, but there are no sonic reasons that I am aware of.

 

[muttley600]

....
For what it's worth, Gibson arch top guitars (other than the 335 and variations) mostly have the 25.5" scale.

This isn't the case. There are some Gibson archtops that have used a 25.5 scale, the L5, Johnny Smith (some were 25") and Super 400 being among them. The biggest sellers in the Gibson archtop stable, the 175 and the L4 CES are mostly 24.75 to 24.62 variant as are most of the others. In the seventies Gibson did some weird things with some models and rogues exist. Not long ago I had a J30 in for repair with a 25.5" scale.

 

[muttley600]

Well, guitars were being made long before calculators were invented. The math is just a series of ratios which don't depend on the absolute length of the scale.

There may be legacy reasons (like with railroad rail spacing) why the "standard" scale lengths are what they are, but there are no sonic reasons that I am aware of.

There is some historical link between the current string length and string technology going back to the gut string days and even way back to lute and viol pitch standards. It's not really relevant to the differences discussed here though..

 

[miroslav]

Well, guitars were being made long before calculators were invented.

"Calculators"...?
You mean to say that math didn't exist before the calculator?

Kidding aside...being that there are rather "precise" yet IMO rather *weird* (fractional - 24.75") scale lengths...
...I always use to think the math WAS important, but I guess now I know it's not....though there IS math involved (with or without a calculator).

 

[ggunn]

"Calculators"...?
You mean to say that math didn't exist before the calculator?

Kidding aside...being that there are rather "precise" yet IMO rather *weird* (fractional - 24.75") scale lengths...
...I always use to think the math WAS important, but I guess now I know it's not....though there IS math involved (with or without a calculator).

Well, sure there is, but it can be done by construction without using numbers, just pieces of string. Start with any arbitrary scale length, cut it half, and that's where the octave fret goes. Cut that distance in half and that's how far the fret for a fourth up from the fundamental goes from the nut (fifth fret). 1/3 the scale length is the distance from the nut to the 7th fret (the fifth). Using those positions and the same method, generate the rest of the twelve tone scale. Tweak for temperament.

 

[miroslav]

... just pieces of string. Start with any arbitrary scale length...

But that's the thing...24.75"...25.5"...I really wouldn't call them "arbitrary"...they certainly seem like specifically chosen numbers, which = math.

Like...if 24.75" was the first "arbitrary" length of string, why/how did someone then decide to add .75" to it to get 25.5"..?...or vice versa...?
Was it all just randomly chosen lengths?

That's really why I asked about the math...etc.

 

[miroslav]

I just found some info on the Stew-Mac website that Gibson has "fudged" it's 24.75 lenght several times over the years:

I guess there isn't a whole lot of percision involved!


And here are some more scale lenghts of known brands/models:

Acoustic Guitar Inches Model/Example
Gibson 25.500 J200 ~ Dove
Gibson 24.750 J45 ~ Hummingbird
Guild 25.625
Martin 25.400 Dreadnought ~ OM
Martin 24.900 0 ~ 00 ~ 000
National/Dobro 25.000
Ovation/Adamas 25.250
Selmer 26.400 Petite Bouche
Selmer 25.500 Grand Bouche
Taylor 25.500
Taylor 24.875 GC
Weissenborn 25.000

Electric Guitar Inches Model/Example
Ampeg 24.750 Dan Armstrong
Benedetto 25.000 Manhattan
Danelectro 25.000
Fender 25.500 Telecaster ~ Stratocaster ~ Jazzmaster
Fender 24.000 Jaguar
Fender 22.500 Mustang
Gibson 25.500 L5 ~ Super 400 ~ Le Grand
Gibson 24.750 Les Paul ~ ES175 ~ ES335
Gretsch 25.500 White Falcon ~ Country Club
Gretsch 24.600
Guild 24.750 Stuart ~ Duane Eddy ~ Starfire
Kay 25.750 Thin Twin
Mosrite 24.500
National 24.750 Glenwood ~ Newport
Parker 25.500 Fly
Rickenbacker 24.750
Rickenbacker 20.750 325
Paul Reed Smith 25.000
Paul Reed Smith 24.500 Santana
Steinberger 25.500

 

[muttley600]

But that's the thing...24.75"...25.5"...I really wouldn't call them "arbitrary"...they certainly seem like specifically chosen numbers, which = math.

Like...if 24.75" was the first "arbitrary" length of string, why/how did someone then decide to add .75" to it to get 25.5"..?...or vice versa...?
Was it all just randomly chosen lengths?

That's really why I asked about the math...etc.

You are approaching this from the wrong angle.

The units are not important it's the division of the octave that is important. Ergonomically and string gauge wise anything from 20" to around 27" will work for a440 EADGBe'. It matters not if you use imperial inches, metric millimeters or the Brunswick inch, the math and physics is the same.

 

[miroslav]

Yes...I can see now that there are scale lenghts of all kinds.

It's becuase I always saw how most builders made a point of specifying the numerical value of their chosen scale length...which is why it appeared as though the math and specific numbers were important.

I just read that PRS wanted to have some of the Fender twang while also maintaining a bit of the Gibson feel...so they split the difference and went with 25" even. According to them, it's the best scale length of both.

Thanks for all the clarifications...