Tube amp brands

Outlaws said:
A good amp with mediocre tubes will smoke a mediocre amp with great tubes. Why? Because the rest of circuit makes a bazillion time more impact on the sound.
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Of all the things in your "tone recipe" from guitar to speaker, the brand of the tubes will make the least amount of difference. If there is something about your sound you aren't happy with, the brand of tubes should be the last thing you look at. Aside from the amp itself, and assuming you have a good guitar to begin with, nothing has more influence on your tone than the pickups. That's where the sound starts, so it is reasonable to assume that your tone will never be any better than what is coming out of the pickups.

You cant start with ice milk and end up with Hagen Daz! :drunk:
 
IMHO the first place to look for tightening your bottom end is the speaker.

Separately, tubes do make a difference. This is less true on the preamps than on the power tubes, but replacing stock Sovtek 12AX7s with JJs or Tung-Sols isn't very expensive. YMMV
 
soundchaser59 said:
Of all the things in your "tone recipe" from guitar to speaker, the brand of the tubes will make the least amount of difference. If there is something about your sound you aren't happy with, the brand of tubes should be the last thing you look at. Aside from the amp itself, and assuming you have a good guitar to begin with, nothing has more influence on your tone than the pickups. That's where the sound starts, so it is reasonable to assume that your tone will never be any better than what is coming out of the pickups.:
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But...assuming the guitar, pickups and everything else is the way you want it...then tubes can be the final step in fine-tuning your tone. ;)

And yes, brands do make a difference...and even different tubes/same brand can make a difference.
Until you can try out dozens of tubes and as many brands...you may not see much difference between a Sovtek or one of the other Russian made "fake brands". :)
 
Well, I didn't say the brand won't make ANY difference, just that it makes the least amount of difference compared to all the other components in the signal path.

Speakers make a lot of difference. But what if you get an EVM15L in the picture and it still farts? It aint the speaker. All other things being good or better, low end quality can be ruined by a wimpy output tranny. If all other tweaks fail to get rid of the farty low end, is the amp worth an OT upgrade? Gotta know what you are doing to make that tweak, and only good or better amps are worth it anyway.....

Cheap pickups will have low end mud as well. Test drive a budget Ibanez hollow body and see....
 
soundchaser59 said:
Well, I didn't say the brand won't make ANY difference, just that it makes the least amount of difference compared to all the other components in the signal path.
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Right...that's true.

I guess you are looking at it more from the perspective that when something is wrong with the overall sound/tone...what steps can be taken to fix it and what has the most effect.

I'm looking at it from the perspective that even when there is nothing wrong with the tone or the guitar/amp/cab...swapping tubes is about getting subtle (sometimes not subtle) adjustments to the tone...not so much about fixing stuff that sounds all-around bad, though there are times when a simple tube swap CAN fix an otherwise crappy tone, and in the big scheme of things...it's a lot cheaper and easier to first try different tubes than changing out pickups or trannies or speakers...etc...not to mention any other electronic components.
Right? :)
 
ocnor said:
I know exactly what you mean about the low end on those Peavey amps turning to mush. You might want to try running a tubescreamer pedal with the gain turned down. That will cut some of the chub from the low end.
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I don't think I could've used a better word for it, The tube screamer does just that, cuts the "chub" out of the low end... The things I notice at first is that it's maybe a little compressed but mainly it seems to cut the low end out... not all of it, just the muddiness and maybe some of the "boomy-ness".
Couldn't a graphic EQ have done the same thing? or is there something I'm missing?
 
Kingofpain678 said:
I don't think I could've used a better word for it, The tube screamer does just that, cuts the "chub" out of the low end... The things I notice at first is that it's maybe a little compressed but mainly it seems to cut the low end out... not all of it, just the muddiness and maybe some of the "boomy-ness".
Couldn't a graphic EQ have done the same thing? or is there something I'm missing?
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It's possible to get similar results with an eq but the tube screamer just adds a certain flavor that you wont get from the eq.
 
miroslav said:
I'm looking at it from the perspective that even when there is nothing wrong with the tone or the guitar/amp/cab...swapping tubes is about getting subtle (sometimes not subtle) adjustments to the tone...not so much about fixing stuff that sounds all-around bad, though there are times when a simple tube swap CAN fix an otherwise crappy tone, and in the big scheme of things...it's a lot cheaper and easier to first try different tubes than changing out pickups or trannies or speakers...etc...not to mention any other electronic components.
Right? :)
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I don't agree with that at all. A crappy tone will not be fixed by top of the line tubes unless the current tubes are beyond completely shot. A point fairly hard to get to in my experience as they tend to fail before being worn out...most likely from transit.

And since when are tubes cheap? If you have an amp with 2 preamps and 2 power amp tubes, it isn't bad, but swap out a set in a modern design and tell me its cheap. Its every bit as expensive as a speaker. Not to mention I can plug into almost any speaker cab I want by visiting a couple guitar shops. I never heard any place let you test run tubes...thats a 100% blind purchase. But then again, it makes little difference IMO since you don't stand to ruin your tone, just maybe experience a little disappointment when the internet gossip about the holy grail turns out to be a fairy tail.
 
Outlaws said:
I don't agree with that at all. A crappy tone will not be fixed by top of the line tubes unless the current tubes are beyond completely shot. A point fairly hard to get to in my experience as they tend to fail before being worn out...most likely from transit.

And since when are tubes cheap? If you have an amp with 2 preamps and 2 power amp tubes, it isn't bad, but swap out a set in a modern design and tell me its cheap. Its every bit as expensive as a speaker. Not to mention I can plug into almost any speaker cab I want by visiting a couple guitar shops. I never heard any place let you test run tubes...thats a 100% blind purchase. But then again, it makes little difference IMO since you don't stand to ruin your tone, just maybe experience a little disappointment when the internet gossip about the holy grail turns out to be a fairy tail.
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That's been my experience as well. I've never spent hundreds on a Mullard 12AXwhatever, but I've swapped around preamp tubes a bit and found that the differences were subtle and within the bounds of subjective listening. YMMV.
 
Outlaws said:
I don't agree with that at all.
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:D

Let me ask you...are you not agreeing just 'cuz you don't believe it...
...or have you actually tried, tested and worked with all types/brands of tubes --- both NOS and current production...?

Like I said...I have a couple of cases of every type of guitar amp tube and from just about every manufacturer from the 50s on up to today.
I also have a high-end tube tester which lets me sort/check my tubes for more than just how they sound when I stick them in an amp.

It's not just "internet gossip" or some "fairy tale". :laughings:

There can be MAJOR tone/touch changes in an amp depending on which tubes you put in it and in which order...
...but until you actually have dozens and dozens of tubes to play with...you will never know. ;)

Here...read through some of this then get back to me. It contains electronic/technical data (not Internet gossip or fairy tales), done by a guy who is at the forefront of guitar amp setups & tubes, Myles Rose.
He's worked with Groove Tubes, Dr. Z Amps and currently works for 65 Amps, and he sets up (aka - "blueprints") guitar amps for some of the top players:

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/Tubeprimerandselection.pdf

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/Primers.html

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/index2.html


PS

You don't need to buy $100 tubes to hear the difference.... :)
 
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miroslav said:
:D

Let me ask you...are you not agreeing just 'cuz you don't believe it...
...or have you actually tried, tested and worked with all types/brands of tubes --- both NOS and current production...?
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That was in my first post in this thread.
 
miroslav said:
There can be MAJOR tone/touch changes in an amp depending on which tubes you put in it and in which order...
...but until you actually have dozens and dozens of tubes to play with...you will never know. ;)
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But you just said a post back that its cheaper to swap tubes to improve tone than to swap a speaker or output tranny....now you say you need a full case to hear the difference. :confused:
 
Outlaws said:
That was in my first post in this thread.
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Well...you didn't really state that you did extensive tube tests/swaps...you only mentioned that you've swapped out some in your Uni/Bi amps (I have a THD Flexi, love it).

Outlaws said:
But you just said a post back that its cheaper to swap tubes to improve tone than to swap a speaker or output tranny....now you say you need a full case to hear the difference. :confused:
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No...you are twisting it.

I'm saying that the guy who swaps out maybe a couple of different preamp tubes in V1 and then claims there is not much difference….needs to try out a few more.
AFA as having dozens and dozens of tubes...well, that's for the tube connoisseurs … ;)
…but the more tubes you have the more tone flavors you will hear and be able to pick from.

Like…how many speakers are out there?
How much would it cost you to try out 20 different speakers *in your cab in your room/space*…??? :eek:
And AFA as swapping out trannies and other electronic components…that’s not simple or cheap either…not to mention, you kill your warranty the minute you do that on a new amp.

Tubes are still the easiest, cheapest tone change..IMO.
I bought most of my tubes when they were still inexpensive. I will NEVER spend $100-$200 on one or two tubes!!! :laughings:
If you get past the brand name hype...you can still find some old/NOS tubes that are inexpensive and sound great. Some of my favorite old/NOS tubes were the ones I paid very little for.
Not to mention...whatever you don't like tone-wise...you can sell back on eBay...just like everyone else is doing.


But there's really no debate here...tubes are not the most important element, but they DO make a difference, especially when you already have a good quality amp...then tube swaps are about fine-tuning, and not about fixing crap.
 
miroslav said:
There can be MAJOR tone/touch changes in an amp depending on which tubes you put in it and in which order...
...but until you actually have dozens and dozens of tubes to play with...you will never know. ;)
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Miro - are we talking 12AX7s vs 12AU7s, or are we talking different brands of 12AX7s here? The former makes perfect sense to me. The latter, eh, I've done a bit of swapping and have definitely heard subtle but clear differences, but nothing I'd call caps-lock MAJOR, exactly.

Swapping the 12AX7s in your amp for a different brand isn't something I'd recommend unless you weren't already fundamentally satisfied with the tone, response, and feel of the amp as it was.
 
Both....

Swap out many Sovtek 12AX7 tubes for something like a NOS Sylvania blackplate...and your tone goes from nasty/harsh to smooth/creamy.

I dunno'...to me...that's a MAJOR tone change. :)


Oh...I'm not quite sure why you don't recommend changing brands of 12AX7 tubes...??? :confused:
 
Kingofpain678 said:
Well I have a peavey windsor. I know alot of people knock it and but I really like the tone I get from it. The only thing I don't like is the low end could "tighten up"(for lack of a better word) a little when I'm "chugging"
[cut] But to be fair I get just the hard rock tone I'm looking for.
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have the windso not knocking but it is doubtful any tube change would produce the effect you want . . . for a lot the reasons already stated that said mullards can and do make a subtle difference in tone and control of that tone . . . unfortunately the stock windsor, generally speaking is not a design that would probably benefit significantly from a tube brand only change and by time you've sunk $1100 in modifications probably be better off just picking up Princeton or AC30
 
As said above, I'd spend time getting the guitar and amp (and pedals) right before splashing out money for the icing on top.
 
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