Getting that 60's Powerful Bass Sound!

[rene-lemieux]

I love Allen Toussaint myself; one of my favorite producers and song writers. I just saw him on Austin City Limits maybe about a month ago or so, and it reminded me of just how many great songs and productions he had a hand in over the years. I can't honestly say that I have picked up any specific technique from his work - that I can think of, anyway - but he most definitely is a big influence on me and my own style of producing/mixing. If someone told me that something I did reminded them of Allen Toussaint, I'd be happy! .

Thats great, if people were to tell me my own prod's sound like Toussaint I would also be thrilled, but not surprized. Like I said, I'm laregely influenced by him, not just on a production level, but musically, stylistically ect. I am currently working on (writing) a few collections of songs for different artists that will be released on my own label hopefully in the future. All of the songs so far are naturally coming out of the Toussaint vein. If you wanna check out the link I posted a few back, and tell me what you think, I'd be thrilled. It's very bare bones, and only an amateur demo so far, that will contain horns and a full on string arrangement in the future. Anyway, I'd love to see what a Toussaint fan thinks of it... It's sounds pretty late 60's meters/toussaint...

Which conjures up another question, I'm curious, how many people are aware of/ fans of the work of Allen Toussaint? My musical tastes advanced into the obscure long ago, and I am completely unaware of who is known and who is not, even if I'm a devoted fan. I like mainly 60's R&B, so as far as Toussaint goes, I'm the most well acquainted with Irma Thomas, Lee Dorsey, and Betty Harris recordings, all of whom are slightly obscure outside of soul music in general, but every day I realize more and more how intertwined Allen is into the fabric of American music over the last 40 years.

Should I start my own thread about him??? The Toussaint appreciation thread, and if so where? (I'd like to actually).

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Acidental double post. Mods please delete.

G.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Which conjures up another question, I'm curious, how many people are aware of/ fans of the work of Allen Toussaint?

Ny impression is that there's a whole lot of people who know many of his songs or productions but who have no idea who he is himself. Kind of like a Louisiana version of Leonard Cohen or John Hiatt, he's one of those guys I put into a file I call "musician's musician".

Probably more people in this forum would be familiar with him, because he's well-known in the musical community, and well-loved by those into making music, but when you get out into the general public (away from Louisana, anyway, where probably everybody knows him ), they'll know many of his songs done by him or others, but may have never heard his name. Heck, just think of how many of a new generation of people have heard his '71 recording of "Sweet Touch of Love" on the TV commercial for Axe cologne last year who have no idea who he is, let alone knowing him as a guy who actually contributed to the discographys of everybody from Glen Campbell to Warren Zevon to Patti LaBelle and a hundred others.

EDIT: I forgot to mention: if you're talking about checking your your cut "Time is Now", I'm d/ling it now and I'll listen to it after dinner (which is ready, the time is now for dinner for me ). I am a sucker for a good horn section arrangement myself. With few exceptions, there is hardly a track that can't benefit from a decent horn section in my book. But that's just my personal preference.

G.

 

[rene-lemieux]

EDIT: I forgot to mention: if you're talking about checking your your cut "Time is Now", I'm d/ling it now and I'll listen to it after dinner (which is ready, the time is now for dinner for me ). I am a sucker for a good horn section arrangement myself. With few exceptions, there is hardly a track that can't benefit from a decent horn section in my book. But that's just my personal preference.

Don't anticipate much from the track, it's pretty sparse, sloppy.... I'll post again in the future when it's all figured out.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Don't anticipate much from the track, it's pretty sparse, sloppy.... I'll post again in the future when it's all figured out.

I understand completely that it's a work in progress, no worries.

But I DO like where you're going with it. The opening piano I thought at first sounded like Toussaint starting a version of Bob Geldof's "I Don't Like Mondays" , and got more and more Toussant-ish as the song progressed. I can definitely hear the space where some strings and horns would definitely fill it out very nicely with a decent Creole funkishness. Also love the bongos or djembe or whatever perc that is next to the drums.

Because it's an unfinished arrangement and mix, I'm hesitant to point out what I hear in that regard, because things tend to change as the mix develops anyway, but if I had the tracks as is in front of me, the two things I'd look at as it is would b to pull back on the drums just slightly, and to see if the bassist could embellish his lines a little bit.

The drums sound fine, but they have (for my own personal tastes, FWTW) a forward presence I'd expect in something more rock-flavored. The snare dominates the mix, fine for straight up rock, but I'd reign it and some of the crashes in just a little bit for this kind of sound. Then again, maybe when the horns and such come in they drums might need more prominence to punch through.

The bass also sound OK; like Ronan said earlier, you want to give it it's own spectral space, and it indeed has it. Maybe a little more punch or attack in a 70s funk kind of way might be nice for this sound. But the main think I noticed was just how basic the bass line is, just following the chord changes and very little else. I'm not saying you need to get Jaco Pastorious in there, but maybe (again, only IMHO) just a little bit of musical noodling around would help. This is especially true I think because the bass does have it's own space down there and therefore rather sticks out to the listener. As such, giving it a bit of extra melodic interest might bring it up to the energy level of the rest of it.

If you want, keep me appraised of how you're going with this via e-mail or PM (so we don't clog the board with personally conversation). I'd love to assist in birthing that baby if you're interested.

G.

 

[LDS]

It's gonna be tough to get the sound I get the impression you're going for with the Ric. I have a 4001 that I've had for decades, and even through an old Ampeg B15, it takes heavy EQ to get the type of sound you describe. Rics are very articlate, even with flatwounds.

I tend to use either an old P-Bass with the tone rolled off about 75% (and old, dead strings), or the front pickup on an even older Gibson EB-3 when I want real boom. But one of the keys is definitely old, dead strings.

 

[oldskooldave]

well you see er..

Me and a friend of mine achieved just what you're looking for, we used his 5150 guitar amp with low bass and a little gain, used a sm57 pointed directly at the cone of the top right speaker, sounded awesome.


ITS LITERALLY THE ONLY HUMAN WAY ONE CAN create SUCH A SOUND!

 

[rene-lemieux]

It's gonna be tough to get the sound I get the impression you're going for with the Ric. I have a 4001 that I've had for decades, and even through an old Ampeg B15, it takes heavy EQ to get the type of sound you describe. Rics are very articlate, even with flatwounds.

I tend to use either an old P-Bass with the tone rolled off about 75% (and old, dead strings), or the front pickup on an even older Gibson EB-3 when I want real boom. But one of the keys is definitely old, dead strings.

Yeah, I know what you mean. The sound of a ric is very distinct and hard to alter, and after I bought it long ago (i was younger and just had to have a ric bass) I began to worry that it wouldn't be good for many applications...

However, I've been pretty damn happy with it. I'm using strings that are maybe 3-4 years old at this point, and always muted, Ive even gone so far to record reggae with it and being extremely satisfied. That P bass sounds like a good choice, but like we all know, it's easier (and cheaper) to make do with what you have, and not have to go using/ buying equipment you don't have (like a b-15 for example, Id love to try one, but good luck finding one)

 

[moresound]

I'm kinda partial to a Fender precision bass through an Ampeg SVT to get that sound. It's not the correct configuration of amp to bass you just have to play with it and the sound you want will jump right out at ya.

 

[LDS]

Ive even gone so far to record reggae with it and being extremely satisfied.

Funny you should mention that.

I recently upgraded to Audition 3.0, and the included Loopology DVD has Ric bass reggae loops. I've used mine on several reggae covers and been extremely happy with the sound.

Just to clarify, are you looking for a tone similar to early Cream or Free?

 

[Monkey Allen]

Can somebody tell me, or direct me to another thread that tells how to get that really powerful, yet not very deep bass sound found on just about every 60's recording session.

Time machine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rene-lemieux]

Funny you should mention that.

I recently upgraded to Audition 3.0, and the included Loopology DVD has Ric bass reggae loops. I've used mine on several reggae covers and been extremely happy with the sound.

Just to clarify, are you looking for a tone similar to early Cream or Free?

Really? That is very interesting, you know what I'm saying though right, doesn't seem like the first choice for a reggae bass...

Umm, neither Cream nor Free specifically, I like a variety of 60's bass tones, I like Creams, but not necessarily aiming for that, I was more wondering if there was a better way to record it, mix it to sound as such, not getting the tones themselves in the first place. I'm already getting some tones I like for the most part.

 

[LDS]

There's a VST pugin called Baxxpander that's pretty cool. Give that a shot.

 

[grimtraveller]

I like a variety of 60's bass tones

Can somebody tell me, or direct me to another thread that tells how to get that really powerful, yet not very deep bass sound found on just about every 60's recording session.

Though there is a semi interesting pre-history of the bass during the 30s and 40s, it was really successfully mass produced in the early 50s. But in my opinion, it never really came of age until the 70s, by which time a more generic sound and placement in the mix had appeared. I think of the bass guitar rather like a person that became mature and responsible after a wild and wayward youth that was nevertheless full of great memories.
That wild and wayward youth was the 60s.
I think the 1960s brought forth the most wonderful bass tones and you see in the bass this tremendous progression as it slowly but surely elevated it's status. It began the decade as a derided inferior to the double bass (the chief low end of jazz and rock'n'roll), lambasted because it was electric and ended it as the indispensable all round foundation of the song that fulfilled almost every musical role going, if only at times subliminally.
If you listen to lots of different pop, soul and rock, there's a bewildering array of bass tones, ranging from those of James Jamerson at Motown, Carol Kaye on countless sessions, McCartney's various tones, Duck Dunn down at Stax, John Entwistle's, Jack Bruce's, John McVie, Ronnie Lane of the Small Faces, Greg Lake, Chris Squire, Chris Hillman, Wally Waller of the Pretty Things, Bootsy Collins, Larry Graham and his revolutionary slap technique, Nick Simper, Roger Waters, Dave Alexander, Noel Redding, Jack Casady, John Paul Jones, Glen Cornick, Ric Gretch and so many more that it starts to become monotonous to name any more. As an aside, it's interesting that jazz fusion of the 60s which was pretty revolutionary within jazz and definitely heading in a rock direction still tended to go with the double bass primarilly or no bass at all (that role being taken by organ bass pedals).
I have this theory {ha ha, I have a theory about that ! } that the reason you had so many different bass tones in the 60s is because there wasn't really much of a consensus as to how to record the bass and also, as it's role and sound evolved, there wasn't even much consensus of what the bass actually did. It was your Kayes, Jamersons, Entwistles and Bruces that really pushed the instrument to respectability. Personally, I detect that as the bass became better recorded, much of that anarchic and experimental approach to it's tone kind of got lost. At the same time, I think many of those tones that we think of as '60s tones' existed often out of accident, a kind of disregard for the instrument's importance, a sort of pissing in the wind.
What a childhood !

 

[rene-lemieux]

Though there is a semi interesting pre-history of the bass during the 30s and 40s, it was really successfully mass produced in the early 50s. But in my opinion, it never really came of age until the 70s, by which time a more generic sound and placement in the mix had appeared. I think of the bass guitar rather like a person that became mature and responsible after a wild and wayward youth that was nevertheless full of great memories.
That wild and wayward youth was the 60s.
I think the 1960s brought forth the most wonderful bass tones and you see in the bass this tremendous progression as it slowly but surely elevated it's status. It began the decade as a derided inferior to the double bass (the chief low end of jazz and rock'n'roll), lambasted because it was electric and ended it as the indispensable all round foundation of the song that fulfilled almost every musical role going, if only at times subliminally.
If you listen to lots of different pop, soul and rock, there's a bewildering array of bass tones, ranging from those of James Jamerson at Motown, Carol Kaye on countless sessions, McCartney's various tones, Duck Dunn down at Stax, John Entwistle's, Jack Bruce's, John McVie, Ronnie Lane of the Small Faces, Greg Lake, Chris Squire, Chris Hillman, Wally Waller of the Pretty Things, Bootsy Collins, Larry Graham and his revolutionary slap technique, Nick Simper, Roger Waters, Dave Alexander, Noel Redding, Jack Casady, John Paul Jones, Glen Cornick, Ric Gretch and so many more that it starts to become monotonous to name any more. As an aside, it's interesting that jazz fusion of the 60s which was pretty revolutionary within jazz and definitely heading in a rock direction still tended to go with the double bass primarilly or no bass at all (that role being taken by organ bass pedals).
I have this theory {ha ha, I have a theory about that ! } that the reason you had so many different bass tones in the 60s is because there wasn't really much of a consensus as to how to record the bass and also, as it's role and sound evolved, there wasn't even much consensus of what the bass actually did. It was your Kayes, Jamersons, Entwistles and Bruces that really pushed the instrument to respectability. Personally, I detect that as the bass became better recorded, much of that anarchic and experimental approach to it's tone kind of got lost. At the same time, I think many of those tones that we think of as '60s tones' existed often out of accident, a kind of disregard for the instrument's importance, a sort of pissing in the wind.
What a childhood !

I couldn't agree more with you on this post... no wonder there's such an obvious attraction to 60's bass tones. Its like a box of gourmet jelly beans, all very sweet, all very different, often experimental. hahaha. I would also throw some of the reggae bassists into that mix (although that was more fully realized by 1972, they were really pushing the low end harder than ever from 1967 and on, as well as developing a distinct playing style that would later be adopted largely into western music).

 

[grimtraveller]

One other thing that occurs to me about about bass guitar in the 60s- many of it's major practitioners were not originally bass guitarists. They came to the bass from other instruments and were therefore bass guitarists by default rather than design, given that until about '66 ish, bass was thought of as the poor relation in a band. The nature of the sound also developed as the nature of the role and increased importance did.

 

[Kramer]

Umm, neither Cream nor Free specifically, I like a variety of 60's bass tones, I like Creams, but not necessarily aiming for that,.

What's a good reference song that I could listen to, to get an idea of what you're looking for?

 

[dintymoore]

In the mid 70's many bass players went to round wound strings so they could get the Louis Johnson slap sound.

That's fine but to me the standard 60's sound that James Jamerson had was wonderful. P Bass with old dead strings. No high end whatsoever. If you only have access to a modern bass with a bright sound don't be scared of drastically rolling off the top so it sounds like dead strings on a P Bass.

Another thing was that James Jamerson went through tube gear (I'm not sure if it was pre's or comp's or both) and that really helps the sound too. Plus he started out on stand up bass so he had that sound in his head.

Felix Papalardi had wonderful tone too. So does Paul McCartney - I always loved the bass on "Baby I'm a Rich Man".

James' masterpiece, RIP, talk about powerful, he got fucked by the industry:

 

[rene-lemieux]

What's a good reference song that I could listen to, to get an idea of what you're looking for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYajp4HUlT4

I like the bass in this song (even though its a recording releast in 1970), but the same time, though, anything will do. The way that the bass sounds on most 60's records has a certain quality that I like. All together I was more asking about in the mixing phase, rather than getting actual bass tones. All info is good, but I'm not about to go buy a differen't bass and rig to play through. The tones I get with my own right now are good, I just want the bass to be bigger in the mix like it was in the 60's recordings.

The info so far has been great.

 

[dintymoore]

If you have access to multi band compression you might experiment with that. The way I have mine set the low band compresses when the mid and high bands don't. That makes it possible for the bass to be way more "in your face". The ol' thing of boosting the average.

I'm using a T.C. Electronics Finalizer to do that but it is possible with some apps, for instance I know Cubase 4 has multi band compression. I do it on the whole track.

One of the major things going on with 60's recordings was the sound you get when you saturate the tape, and a part of that sound was probably the lows getting squashed while the highs didn't get squashed so much, because the bass has so much more balls it can make compressors kick in more.