Money on monitors or interface?

[rnelson]

But for a beginner, things like what a good sound is or isn't becomes much of a muchness. If you have a 'bad sound' {your words} but it sounds good to you, it's going to take some time before you get to the point where you change your mind about what is and what isn't a good sound.
I made an observation in another thread that the standards and bar set in home recording seems really high ! In a way that's a good thing but sometimes, I wonder if we're not taking into account progression. To put it bluntly, someone new, in my opinion, needs to know that there is a learning curve and that it takes time and sweat to progress up this curve if you want to. Things like room treatment make a difference to someone whose ears are sufficiently trained {and by that, I don't mean an expert}, not someone who doesn't have a clue because how will they know what effects what ? If after a few months said newbie is back saying "I'm having this problem and that problem", then I'd say that is sometimes a good thing. It represents progression.
Incidentally, Chibi and Bristol, I'm not knocking what you've said. I think it's been really valuable and it hopefully will get people thinking along lines they otherwise wouldn't have. But for the new home recorder who wants to record and enjoy what they do and who isn't necesarilly at this point looking for nirvana, wouldn't they need to just hit basics first ? Part of the reason home recording has really taken off, whether rightly or wrongly, is because people can make music at home without all the (as they see it) drama, heavy weather and construction skills that it always seemed was necesary. Get a machine, plug in and go ! Then as one gets further in.........
Had this been in a section other than the newbie one, I wouldn't really have said any of that. I assume that if a question is in the newbie bit, that the poster is new at all this.

This was really my entire point. I was trying to say that a beginner should not overemphasize room treatment because a beginner still has not developed their ears to a level that they would really know their room sucks.

I think that as experienced studio owners people forget how they started. I do agree that my logic might be backwards for an advanced home recorder, but really think about it. Im talking about a TIGHT budget, try to visualize only having money for either treatment, monitors, or an interface. Yes its true that without treatment your recordings will not have the best quality, but without the interface, you cant record, period. It seems a bit backwards to me to ask a newbie to buy stuff he can barely afford for a difference he is barely gonna hear anyway.

To summarize, my logic is: "all in due time".

 

[Bristol Posse]

Sorry Bristol but I gotta disagree with you here. Something similar to this was brought up recently in another thread.

Summary: If you're looking to get more rejection from background noise, there's no reason why a dynamic mic will do a better job of it than any other kind of microphone. Instead, three things make the difference:

1) The polar pattern - Cardioid, Hypercardioid, Supercardioid etc. will do a fine job of picking up the sound in front of the mic, and reject sounds from the rears (however the more cardioid it gets, there's some small pickup at the very rear of the mic). In contrast, omnidirectional and figure of 8 mics will pick up more background noise due to their pickup response.

2) How close you are to the mic - As you come closer to the mic, the (source) signal that the mic picks up becomes louder, whereas the background noise stays at the same level, which further increases the ratio of source signal vs. room tone/background noise. This also means that you can gain the mic less to compensate for the increase in source signal (so that its at a similar level as when you were further back), but it will also reduce the background noise.

3) How loud the source sound is - This is the only one that doesn't affect room tone as much, however it does affect things like birds chirping in the background (or other background noises). As you sing louder, or turn the amp up etc. while the background noise stays at the same level, the ratio of source sound vs. background noise increases (see above for how this reduces background noise of recording). The reason it doesn't affect room tone as much is because the louder the source sound is, the louder it will be in the room, therefore the tone that the room generates as a result will become louder. Although there will still be an increase of source sound vs. room tone

Take a look at this thread, starting with post 18: https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=300830

Fair point
I must admit I've never tried singing into a condensor from less than 1 inch away
All my condensor experience has been on backing voacls where to get the sense of distance i usually I am a couple of feet away and back ground noise is a problem

The SM7B (or even a 58) needs about 55-60db of gain to get to line level even at very close proximity however so generally on a home recording vocal setup it's almost impossible to use from more than an inch or two distance and so background noise is virtually a non issue

 

[Chibi Nappa]

This was really my entire point. I was trying to say that a beginner should not overemphasize room treatment because a beginner still has not developed their ears to a level that they would really know their room sucks.

You keep saying they have to develop first. How are they going to develop without being able to hear accurately?

It's like every day you show a photo of a random dude to your student and tell them "this is not Joe". It's is going to be a loooooong time before that student learns what Joe looks like.

I think that as experienced studio owners people forget how they started.

It's more like we're remembering how we started and trying to prevent others from making the same mistakes.

I do agree that my logic might be backwards for an advanced home recorder, but really think about it. Im talking about a TIGHT budget, try to visualize only having money for either treatment, monitors, or an interface. Yes its true that without treatment your recordings will not have the best quality, but without the interface, you cant record, period.

Every computer has a sound card with a mic input and a stereo line in. Serviceable mics can be had for $20-$30. Audacity and Reaper are free. There you go.

It seems a bit backwards to me to ask a newbie to buy stuff he can barely afford for a difference he is barely gonna hear anyway.

I agree 100%. A newbie can barely afford mics and interfaces, is not going to hear the difference they make anyway, and isn't even going to be sending good sounds in their direction. So they might as well spend the money on the one single thing that can make them better in any real fashion: A room that plays back sound accurately.

 

[grimtraveller]

This was really my entire point. I was trying to say that a beginner should not overemphasize room treatment because a beginner still has not developed their ears to a level that they would really know their room sucks.

I think that as experienced studio owners people forget how they started. I do agree that my logic might be backwards for an advanced home recorder.....
Yes its true that without treatment your recordings will not have the best quality, but without the interface, you cant record, period. It seems a bit backwards to me to ask a newbie to buy stuff he can barely afford for a difference he is barely gonna hear anyway.

To summarize, my logic is: "all in due time".

Finally listened to a friend of mine that said, "Dude...ya gotta tune your room. Ya tune your guitar right? Well, tune your room"


1st in importance is the room
2nd is the monitors
3rd is everything else.

I understand where Chibi, Bristol, Dogbreath and others are coming from on this and I'm not contradicting or criticizing their stance. I think it's really important to take on board what they've said and for that to be part of one's thinking process along this journey. I think it was Bristol that said something about opening up the options. Can't argue with that, I tend to go that way myself.

You know what's coming now though, don't you ?! A 'but'.

I'm casting my mind back to when I decided that I was going to have a go at recording the songs that were in my head and guitar and bass {because despite what Paul McCartney says, you can write songs on a bass !}. All I really wanted was some machine with which to lay down stuff and overdub without having to resort to 'sound on sound' that was going to end up as a mush of hiss. All the advice in the world about anything other than how to multitrack would have gone right over my head because that's all I wanted to do. Now, when I look back on those distant days of '91/'92, I laugh. Because not even a public appeal from the Pope and Obama would get me now to use the Fostex X-15 4 track cassette portastudio. But it's what I started on and I'm glad. Believe me, when I recorded on it and played stuff back via my stereo, I could hear it fine and clear and it was ever so exciting. At the time, I wasn't aware of the importance of mike placement and stuff like that but I find that often, as one grows in anything, you want more. And if at all possible, you search out sources that can aid you in that quest.
When I first started playing bass and jamming with my friends, I would always record our jams and they sounded wonderful to me. It was such a thrill ! That stuff is now at least 28 years old and I wouldn't torture my enemies with it. I'd be too embarrassed for them to hear it !

We progress, but we have to start somewhere.

I genuinely do apologize for once again dragging the Beatles into this, but as an avid reader of their story and in particular, their contribution to studiocraft, this thought strikes me. The day in 1962 they had their first session, virtually everything existed in place for them to have made the Sergeant Pepper Lp which, in '67, was lauded as a gigantic leap forward.

But they didn't. They recorded "Love me do" !
From tiny acorns.....

 

[grimtraveller]

It's more like we're remembering how we started and trying to prevent others from making the same mistakes.

I think that's a great point. But so much of our realizations come retrospectively and I think that much of the time, we're better for it. And what's a mistake for one person isn't necesarilly so for someone else. But I catch your drift.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I'm casting my mind back to when I decided that I was going to have a go at recording the songs that were in my head and guitar and bass {because despite what Paul McCartney says, you can write songs on a bass !}. All I really wanted was some machine with which to lay down stuff and overdub without having to resort to 'sound on sound' that was going to end up as a mush of hiss. All the advice in the world about anything other than how to multitrack would have gone right over my head because that's all I wanted to do.

Yeah, you definitely need some way to record. But these days every single computer that everybody already owns comes equipped with way more than those old cassette recorders could ever do, so that barrier is down.



I think people need to ask themselves what we are trying to learn anyway. Are we trying to learn how to run a software program? Are we trying to learn how to cable gear "A" up to gear "B"? Are we trying to learn the technical rudiments of a sound board?

What is the skill of recording and mixing? Is it the skill of owning gear? Is it the skill of watching a meter and turning a knob until the line doesn't bounce into the red?

I say it is almost entirely the skill of listening. Specifically the skill of how sounds interact with other sounds. Check album credits. There is an engineer and an assistant. One guy sits in a chair in a totally separate room and listens while the other guy runs around and places mics and cables things up. The guy sitting and listening gets the credit for recording the album.

Say you're gearing up to record and Steve Albini offers to do the recording. But he has to use your equipment. You've got a DAW that Steve Albini has never used in his life and a selection of mics he's never heard. Do you turn him down because he hasn't learned that equipment? Or do you realize that recording has a vanishingly small amount to do with menus and plugins and exotic this and that on your hardware and just know that Steve Albini has got "it" and will do just fine on your stuff. It's all in the person. And what the person does for the most part is listen (the rest is people skills with the band. No, really).

 

[A.D.Ryan]

Thank you guys!

Ok, so this is what I got. Thank you guys. The fast track Ultra 8R was selling for 530 bucks in one place, so when I found it for 400, I took it. I live in Japan, and this stuff is a bit more expensive, unless it`s made in Japan. My only regret is not buying more expensive monitors, but I`ll but better ones next year.I`m still learning.
NT2A Condenser Microphone
Rode pop filter
a pair of KRK RP5G2 Monitors
a load of cables
Fast Track Ultra 8R Interface
Sony MDR-7506
You reckon it`s ok? I`ll buy a couple of those bass traps ASAP. Then I have to download REAPER. I heard it can be downloaded for free, but when you go to the site, it tells you that you have to pay 50 bucks!
Also, nobody mentioned the music keyboard. Is it not a must have for a home studio?

 

[philbagg]

Ok, so this is what I got. Thank you guys. The fast track Ultra 8R was selling for 530 bucks in one place, so when I found it for 400, I took it. I live in Japan, and this stuff is a bit more expensive, unless it`s made in Japan. My only regret is not buying more expensive monitors, but I`ll but better ones next year.I`m still learning.
NT2A Condenser Microphone
Rode pop filter
a pair of KRK RP5G2 Monitors
a load of cables
Fast Track Ultra 8R Interface
Sony MDR-7506
You reckon it`s ok? I`ll buy a couple of those bass traps ASAP. Then I have to download REAPER. I heard it can be downloaded for free, but when you go to the site, it tells you that you have to pay 50 bucks!
Also, nobody mentioned the music keyboard. Is it not a must have for a home studio?

You don't have to buy it. It's free to try, and I think the only limitations of not buying it are having to wait like 10 seconds after you open it before you can use it.

And if you're referring to a MIDI keyboard, it's not a must have, but if you're going to be programming midi, it is handy to have.

 

[grimtraveller]

Also, nobody mentioned the music keyboard. Is it not a must have for a home studio?

That depends on a number of things. I wouldn't say it's a "must have". Are you going to use virtual instruments or work with MIDI ? In that case it's useful to have one. For me I couldn't use a mouse {I hate rodents }. But I've seen people using the mouse with more dexterity than I have clunking around a keyboard ! I think that sometimes we get too hung up on the gear because people talk about it so much in explaining how they do things, then we feel we must have this or that piece, thereby missing the point of what whoever was saying. Only get a keyboard if you are actually going to use one.

 

[grimtraveller]

Say you're gearing up to record and Steve Albini offers to do the recording. But he has to use your equipment. You've got a DAW that Steve Albini has never used in his life and a selection of mics he's never heard. Do you turn him down because he hasn't learned that equipment? Or do you realize that recording has a vanishingly small amount to do with menus and plugins and exotic this and that on your hardware and just know that Steve Albini has got "it" and will do just fine on your stuff. It's all in the person. And what the person does for the most part is listen (the rest is people skills with the band. No, really).

Do you have Steve's number ? D'you know if he does weekends ?

 

[A.D.Ryan]

Thank you guys!

Philbagg, Grimtraveller, I don`t have a band behind me. How do I do the drums without a keyboard, right? Philbagg, I have no idea what I`m gonna do, mate! It`s all Greek to me. MDII. I could get my hands on a Cool Edit Pro. Is Reaper as good? Or maybe easier to use? I`m really not a high tech savvy, so that would help a little

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Do you have Steve's number ? D'you know if he does weekends ?

I have a Steve's number...

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Is Reaper as good? Or maybe easier to use? I`m really not a high tech savvy, so that would help a little

Reaper is excellent.

How do I do the drums without a keyboard, right?

You can either buy pre-recorded drum parts that are chopped into easy patterns to assemble (something like Acid), or you could use a soft-synth and click the drum notes on to a music staff with your mouse kind of like you were writing sheet music.

 

[rnelson]

You keep saying they have to develop first. How are they going to develop without being able to hear accurately?

It's like every day you show a photo of a random dude to your student and tell them "this is not Joe". It's is going to be a loooooong time before that student learns what Joe looks like.

It's more like we're remembering how we started and trying to prevent others from making the same mistakes.
Every computer has a sound card with a mic input and a stereo line in. Serviceable mics can be had for $20-$30. Audacity and Reaper are free. There you go.


I agree 100%. A newbie can barely afford mics and interfaces, is not going to hear the difference they make anyway, and isn't even going to be sending good sounds in their direction. So they might as well spend the money on the one single thing that can make them better in any real fashion: A room that plays back sound accurately.

Definitely a lot of valid points here, I really cant say you are wrong about any of this, but I still disagree based on my experience.

When I first started out I really didnt have a lot of money or a permanent space that I could call 'my studio' I was a student and recorded with my laptop any place I happened to be. For me rooms did not factor in too much since my ears werent developed enough to hear a big difference. Still I bought an emu 1616m which for me turned out to be a super good and reliable interface, and it came with cubase LE. So right off the bat I had a good sounding interface, and a solid DAW that was only an inexpensive update away from a professional recording program.

Again, its not that im saying you're wrong, its just that people do have different experiences starting out. In my case, I got to know my sequencer and how to manipuate sounds post-recording before I started looking at my room. Which I know seems weird know, but to be honest it was that experimentation with sound manipulation that really got my hearing to a level were I could see that my room needed to be better.

Also, before I got my interface I did try to record a couple of demos with my built in soundcard and they were all a complete POS. Maybe its just me but I do believe that there are far more good recordings done in crappy rooms with a good interface than something done in a great room with a built in soundcard. At least there are some guerilla ways of controlling the effect the room has on your recordings but without an interface your sound is gonna be crappy no matter what.

Just my personal opinion.

 

[A.D.Ryan]

Thanks

Thanks Chibi. I`ll look into that. But I`ll probably buy a keyboard. I`ve written a lot of songs but I feel that a keyboard could improve my songwriting!

 

[philbagg]

Philbagg, Grimtraveller, I don`t have a band behind me. How do I do the drums without a keyboard, right? Philbagg, I have no idea what I`m gonna do, mate! It`s all Greek to me. MDII. I could get my hands on a Cool Edit Pro. Is Reaper as good? Or maybe easier to use? I`m really not a high tech savvy, so that would help a little

I'm still trying to work out what the hell you just said

Summary of doing drums without a keyboard:

1) You'll need a sampler plugin with drum samples on it

2) The rest is dependant on your DAW

If you go out and buy Pro Tools, I'll give you the basics. If you ask me about programming on anything else, me =

 

[Chibi Nappa]

but without an interface your sound is gonna be crappy no matter what.

An experiment:

Take a CD player with a headphone jack. Run a stereo cord from the headphone jack to the stereo in on any computer stock sound card. Play Radiohead's OK Computer on the CD player and record it with Audacity or something. The playback will sound great. Way better than what any of us who aren't named "Radiohead" can do anyway. It is all 100% what you throw at the card in the first place.

Will the Radiohead recording come out better on a real interface? Yeah. But that's not the point. A stock computer sound card just made a recording that sounds better than anything any of us can do.

 

[A.D.Ryan]

Thanks

Phil, what I meant was that I don`t know any drummers who can do the job You know, the real Mccoy

 

[Supercreep]

What needs to be explored is the OP's level of committment to getting a "great" sound. Maybe they just want to crank out a demo, and they won't mind if it sounds boxy.

If it's just vocals, try to get a hold of a quality dynamic like an RE-20 or an SM-7. They take a lot of gain, so make sure the interface has got 60+ db of it. They won't pick up much room at all.

 

[A.D.Ryan]

A decent demo

Cheers mate. I just want to record a decent demo. It doesn`t have to be perfect, but it won`t hurt trying to achieve that
Guitar and vocal are my priorities. Thank you for the advice. For the first 2 weeks I`ll be reading a lot. How to use reaper , how to....etc. I`m new to al this. Then I`ll try to record something.