TheChikenMaster
I'm Unbalanced
I like good sweet verb like candyapples 
E
EV 676
New member
My PCM 70 will have to be pried from my cold dead hands.
That said I mix for broadcast (audio post for TV and live for TV).
I've all but given up using reverb in my post work. By the time it gets through the transmission patch (the plumbing), it usually is sucked out of the mix.
When I mix music for live TV, I'll add reverb, of course depending on the material and the performer.
That said I mix for broadcast (audio post for TV and live for TV).
I've all but given up using reverb in my post work. By the time it gets through the transmission patch (the plumbing), it usually is sucked out of the mix.
When I mix music for live TV, I'll add reverb, of course depending on the material and the performer.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I don't hate reverb at all. But I'm no great fan of chorus. I can't stand much of it's effect.
T
Terry Wetzel
New member
Feeling old are you?
I have come to respect your experience and opinions since I first became a member. Your advice and council on matters of a technical nature are usually spot on! Until now. First off, every one has a favorite form of music. Usually it's what ever was popular during their formative,(teen) years. The fact that the majority of people who participate here prefer their kind of music doesn't make them musically or intellectually inferior to anyone else who happens to disagree. What they are attempting to acomplish is their own recreation of the music that they love both musically and technically and compared to what is currently popular I salute theirv endeavors The Beatles were great because they were the Beatles! That kind of greqatness only happens once in a blue moon. Elvis Presley before them was the other phenomenon and that was 10 years earlier. The Beatles had George Martin who is greatly overlooked by the average young listener but never the less, deserves full credit for their resulting recorded catalog. I'll be 69 years old this month. I have learned over the years that opinions are like Assholes! Not every asshole will agree with me. It used to piss me off and I would sometimes engage in heated arguments, trying to convert them to my way of thinking. Several years ago I finally decided that life was too short! Let them have their music and their opinions! All things will pass. Who knows what form pop music will take in years to come? Whatever it is it will be that generations music and, no matter what I think, It won't stop them from loving it! Pass the solient green, and just a little reverb!
How does it feel?Yeah, I knew you were probably exaggerating a bit, just poking a bit of fun, Rami.
And once again, my mistake. I can't help it; I keep forgetting that on this board there is only one type of music: either metallurgy or hip hop, dpening upon which side of the tracks you were born on, and that there are only two bands in the whole world that are the tiny exception: the Beatles and Britney Spears. Nothing else exists.
I know you guys get tired of me bitching about that, but you guys have no idea how fatiguing, exasperating and depressing it gets when the majority of people interested in home recording these days are just not into music in general any more. It wasn't that long ago that recordists and hobbyists tended to be musicologists first, and recordists second. Now things seem to have flip-flopped in that regard, and I feel like a dying species.
Excuse me while I go eat my Soylent Green and lay down to die...
G.
I have come to respect your experience and opinions since I first became a member. Your advice and council on matters of a technical nature are usually spot on! Until now. First off, every one has a favorite form of music. Usually it's what ever was popular during their formative,(teen) years. The fact that the majority of people who participate here prefer their kind of music doesn't make them musically or intellectually inferior to anyone else who happens to disagree. What they are attempting to acomplish is their own recreation of the music that they love both musically and technically and compared to what is currently popular I salute theirv endeavors The Beatles were great because they were the Beatles! That kind of greqatness only happens once in a blue moon. Elvis Presley before them was the other phenomenon and that was 10 years earlier. The Beatles had George Martin who is greatly overlooked by the average young listener but never the less, deserves full credit for their resulting recorded catalog. I'll be 69 years old this month. I have learned over the years that opinions are like Assholes! Not every asshole will agree with me. It used to piss me off and I would sometimes engage in heated arguments, trying to convert them to my way of thinking. Several years ago I finally decided that life was too short! Let them have their music and their opinions! All things will pass. Who knows what form pop music will take in years to come? Whatever it is it will be that generations music and, no matter what I think, It won't stop them from loving it! Pass the solient green, and just a little reverb!
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
While that is indeed often true, Terry, it most certainly does not apply to everyone. For many folks it's no more true than it's true to say they have a favorite food cuisine. I like Italian, Chinese, Mediterranean, Indian, German, and many, many other cuisines, and which one I prefer depends *entirely* on what mood I'm in and which one I have a taste for on any given day. It's no different with music, whether it's 60's R&B, rock, big band, swing, folk, zydeco, reggae, alternative country, delta blues, Piedmont blues, world music, classical, space rock, synth, punk, etc.
I grew up on the Beatles, so how do does that fit your theory? The fact is, Terry, that for me, because of the sheer amount of music I have listened to over the years, that I suffer from the "Stairway To Heaven synrome" with the Beatles; that is, after the first thirty three *million* times I have heard their stuff, I've had enough already. Especially when as good as they were, they were in reality no better than a thousand other genius musical performers and bands over the years that don't get one-thousandth of the ink that the Beatles do. There's more to life and music than Elvis, the Beatles, and Metalica's Black Album.
I was in my teens in the 70s, yet it is probably one of my least favorite decades for music, so that doesn't fit either. (And please don't oversimplify or misconstrue that statement as meaning I hate the 70s or hate the music of the 70s. Take it at face value for exactly what it says; it's one of my least favorite, nothing more, nothing less.)
When my friend and I first started getting into home recording and building our first basement studio back in the mid-late 70s, we hand a small cadre of amateur musicians and recordists the majority of which had rather eclectic tastes in music which were developed to one degree or another *before* we even considered getting into recording. It was about the music long before it was about the recording. We did or had people doing everything from analog synth instrumentals to Spanish/classical guitar to pop rock, and most things in-between. I'm not saying that's superior or inferior, I'm just saying *that's how it was*. And not just for us, but we observed that quite a bit throughout the community.
I'm just observing - after five years of observing on this forum and over 30 years in this racket in one form or another - that the home recording culture has change. It's much more about the recording itself than it is about the music now. It's a reflection of the way the commercial industry has gone, where the music has become not the end, but the means to the end, with the end now being more about the physicality of the act and the fame. The trend - and yes of course there are plenty of exceptions, please stop taking everything as being so either/or all the time - nowadays is want to get a recording "published" on mySpace or iTunes ASAP, as if the world were going to end tomorrow, actual musical worthiness of such recordings be damned. This trend means that there are a shitload of people out there whom are not really necessarily that into music in general or haven't yet had the chance to develop their musical lexicon leapfrogging straight into recording as soon as they learn how to play a I IV V without breaking their strings.
And for god sakes, that's not an assertion of superiority in even the least bit. I NEVER claimed that I was superior for those or any other reasons. If it makes you feel that way, that's your own issue, not mine. You're reading things into it that are just not there. It's only an observation of a change in the home recording culture that I have noticed based upon my long personal experience. And like many people like the music they grew up on, like you say, they miss that in the "new music". All I'm saying is that A) I miss the old home recording culture in that regard, and 2) that the new one tends to generate a a high volume of high-noise/low-signal material. That first one is how I feel, like it or not. The second one is not opinion, it's a fact obvious to anybody with their actual finger on the pulse.
So excuse me for not just simply going with the flow of this BBS in some of my opinions and observations. Just because I'm one of the few to have the balls to disagree with the "conventional wisdom" in public and non-anonymously - which itself is a rarity these days - does NOT mean that I am asserting any kind of superiority. It just means I'm am doing my best to be honest about what I see and feel. If that threatens you in some way by making you think that I feel superior to you or anybody else simply because I am not afraid to say when the emperor has no clothes, I can't help that.
G.
acidrock
GO PACKERS!
Because you can't quantify musical ability,it's mostly opinion(see:modern art
) the way these groups get judged is by societal impact.As far as listening to different things,a person who is really into music is much more likely to stray off the beaten path.I think as musicians,recorders,etc,we forget our views are much different than the general public when it comes to music.
Sorry if I'm OT,but it's an old thread anyway.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I think this is perhaps the key notion to get hold of in the world of recording, pro or otherwise {and lets face it, many of us here are that wise 'other'
}.At the end of the day, most people that I know that are not musicians or involved in recording at some level, unless they are audiophiles, have not the slightest interest in or inclination towards the things we discuss and war over here ! They just enjoy their music ! They are not dummies that can't make up their minds and are therefore duped and spoonfed by 'the industry'. I find in general, people go for what they like, sometimes a little peer or cultural pressure notwithstanding. But I wonder how many people would seriously notice if a song had no reverb on the vocal or no compression on the drums.
Mind you, I quite enjoy the musical banter
.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
As they*should* be, IMHO.
First off, I think it's the ultimate in hubris and in assertion of "superiority" to assume we know what the public really likes or wants in the way of music. Most of them don't even know themselves. I agree with grim that they are not necessarily stupid in that regard, but a large majority of them do not have easy access to the kind of variety that allows them to actually choose. Just because a large chunk of the population has ClearChannel programming bombarding them from all outlets doesn't necessarily mean that's what they have a preference for; it just means that's what they have the easiest access to. Just because McDonald's is so prevalent doesn't mean that the Big Mac is the ideal food that most people would prefer to eat all the time. It just means it's easy enough and just palatable enough to make money.
Give the public some real musical choice with the same easy access and what they are force fed by ClearChannel, and I think one might be pleasantly surprised to find that there are more people more interested in more varieties of music than just what the record labels are putting the largest promotional budget behind.
Second, since when is being a musician all about giving the public what they think they want? That's the Monkees, not the Beatles. I don't hear a lot of people here singing the accolades of the Monkees the way they do the Beatles. Calling one's self a musician when their intention is to make music that easy enough and just palatable enough to make money, like a sonic Big Mac, is like a McD's fry cook calling themselves a chef.
Give the public some credit; there *is* a market out there for quality original music, despite what Sony and ClearChannel would like us believe, and the need to just try to sound like someone or something else just because it follows a successful formula - like the Monkees trying to pretend to be an American Bealtles - is not only not necessary, but its self-defeating.
G.
Seafroggys
Well-known member
The most interesting part of that post was Glen saying something kinda nice about The Beatles
S
sarika2376
New member
violins and elves
sometimes i use so much reverb my snare drum will sound like a violin or a dying bobcat in the middle of an enchanted elven forest with hillbillies hunting opossum beneath a full moon.
sometimes i use so much reverb my snare drum will sound like a violin or a dying bobcat in the middle of an enchanted elven forest with hillbillies hunting opossum beneath a full moon.
M
MMensch
New member
It used to be an important part of my vocal sound but then I got sick of it one day. I still love it on synth brass and overdriven guitars though, I'll usually have one of my effect boxes dedicated to that.
I haven't been on this board long and I'm fully prepared to believe what you're saying, but it still doesn't really make sense to me. Thing is, I find that people who are not into music, who aren't actual musicians even, never think of starting a career in music, let alone home recording, to get a shot at their proverbial 15 minutes. Truth be told, I don't hang out with any musicians who do commercial stuff, but I'd assume it's common knowledge that making music on your own is difficult, even for your personal pleasure (at least if you have any standards at all), but expecting to actually take you somewhere is just ludicrous. I mean, in case you're onto something, where do you think people get such notions from?
To be honest, and please don't take it as a personal attack, I've always been wary of older people saying that. I'm 29, and though I have trouble identifying with much of the newer scene, I still feel that there is more fantastic music being made than I can possibly listen to, and I'm extremely happy about this. An even more important point for me is, however, that making music has become such a democratic process. I for one are happy to wade through a bit more shit and waste some time on lame music because the fact that everybody who feels the need inside of them has the means of making music, with me having the opportunity to listen to it, is so important to me.
Now I think we're coming onto my part of the truth from your previous paragraph here, and that is that for me, good music is as much about good musicianship, which probably has been on decline in recent years (with me being with those bringing down the average) as it is about the honesty and immediacy of expression, which is something that is in theory inherent to each and everyone of us, and I'm very interested in that. Just like you say you're burned out on The Beatles because you've listened to them too much, I've become increasingly bored with the same old mood and atmosphere that I'm getting from most commercial popular music (i.e. pop, rock, electronica an the like). So I'm looking for new stuff to excite and inspire me in this way, and from my experience, I'm at least as likely to strike gold with some desperate home recordists as I am with music that has gone through similar filters as you've experienced it in the 1970s.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Just as an example, have you seen most of the people that try out for American I-Dull who couldn't carry a tune in a basket and who either don't care or have no clue that they just can't sing? There was a time they were relegated to the occasional Gong Show. Now they actually believe they are serious contenders.
Or have you heard the judges talk about the criteria they use for selecting the winners? The quality of their actual vocal musicianship and musical interpretation comes in something like third and fourth place over stuff like their personality and stage presence, because Simon is one of those A&R guys that is worried about that being what sells tickets and records to the 14-yr-olds. It's all about fame now, with the music just being the vehicle, and the public who watches that drek on TV is buying it.
Just hang around here for a while, my friend, and become shocked over the jaw-droppingly large percentage of people asking how they can use the gear they have to cover for a drummer who can't drum or a singer who can't sing or a dulcimerist who can't dulce (
). Then sit back and marvel at the number of home recording bands who feel they have to publish on mySpace "ASAP" or are on a "deadline", even though there's really zero real reason for the hurry other than they just gotta get published because that's the only way you can be somebody now.
I'd assume the same thing, Mmensch. But just stick around, keep your eyes open and pay attention to the huge number of folks out there who really do believe that technology is their savior, that all they need is the right combo of plug-ins and the right preset settings, and they too can create a music track that they can stick into the middle of their iPod playlist, right with all their commercial CD rips, and not tell the difference, both technically and musically. They really *DO* think it's that easy.
Where do they get this idea? I'm not sure, but I suspect that two strong influences are the flood of bullshit coming out of the marketing departments of music software companies these days that make it sound like all you need is their plug-in suite to sound great, and a stronger-than-normal sense of entitlement out of (for lack of a better term) the Internet generation where so much is available for free for the click of a button.
The Logan's Run Principle again, eh? Just wait, in another ten years, which will fly by faster than you think, you'll be singing an entirely different tune.
I'm not saying there isn't a lot of great music out there still being made, of COURSE there is. It's just that it's harder to find because it never makes radio play for a vast amount of the population, and because the "democracy" of Internet 2.0 has made a whole lot of dung that one has to wade through before they can find the gems. Which leads to
I can respect where you're coming from with all that, but I see the same thing from a bit different of a perspective: democracy is nice and all that, but it does not increase the actual available talent pool. Yeah, it's nice that everybody can express themselves, but not everybody has something all that interesting to express. I personally know that I will never me more than a mediocre musician myself (my talent is behind the glass), and I'm not going to bother inflicting my mediocrity upon the public, just because I can.
Think of it like this; imagine that instead of music that we were talking about baseball, and somehow democracy broke out in major league baseball so that anybody could be eligible to play for a pro sports team just by wanting to. That would NOT increase the number of people actually good enough to actually play for the Yankees or Red Sox; the number of people actually good enough to be a starting pitcher for either team in this country is still very small and equally as small with or without the "democracy". This is one important reason why the major sports leagues don't just automatically give a sports team to every city and town that wants one; among other reasons is the danger of diluting the sport's quality by having to fill the rosters with lesser talent.
I'm not just some grumpy old man saying that things just aren't as good today a they were in "my day" (as if "my days" ended already, which they haven't). That is not what I'm saying at all, and the stereotype is lazy. These days there is still just as much musical talent as there has ever been, and I've not said otherwise, In fact there's more than ever just by virtue of a larger population than ever. So let's put the Logan's Run prejudices away, shall we? But there's still only so many folks out there actually worth listening to, and that number is far less than the number that Internet "democracy" lets in. This means that the *percentage* of quality acts to total number of acts has decreased. This - *by very definition* - means a decrease in signal to noise ratio in the musical talent pool published out there. It's math, not opinion.
G.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
The most interesting part of that post was Glen saying something kinda nice about The Beatles
He was paid handsomely.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I wish! Unfortunately I had the same contract that the Beatles originally signed, so I got virtually nuthin'He was paid handsomely.
G.
acidrock
GO PACKERS!
If you listen to comedians,movie stars,athletes,they will all consistently tell you the new stuff isn't as good as the old.This has been going on since the dawn of time,and of course it's not true.The reason people believe this is because memory is selective and time has a way of seperating the wheat from the chaff.There has always been crap,but as Glen points out it's the sheer volume of it that makes the difference.The industry used to act as a filter.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I think that's so true. Whether it's a good or bad thing is anyone's call, but that filter effect has certainly been disarmed by the easy availability of recording goodies to the masses. I'm not complaining though, being a recipient of it.
acidrock
GO PACKERS!
.
M
MMensch
New member
Wow, I'd never imagine that American Idol would encourage people to make music - so it's not all bad then? Seriously though, we haven't had a show like that in Slovenia yet, in fact we're only about to have our first nationally-televised general-talent show (with fire-breathers and jugglers rubbing shoulders with imitators and ventriloquists, at least what I've seen from sneak previews), so we've had no experience with the effects of such programmes. If we eventually get more kids to dabble in Reason or strum away on cheap electric guitars, I'm cool with that (see also below).
When you mention the criteria for the contestants to qualify into the next round, I can't help thinking that at least half of it is just revealing how the mechanism has always worked. Since the dawn of popular music, if you had two similar bands, one with better songs and the other with better-looking performers, chances are the latter would go further as long as the songs were serviceable. So when it comes to situations like this, I'm always somehow torn between being pissed off at the general public for preferring trivial shit in nice wrapping (even if only this means that I'm less likely to be exposed to stuff that I like), but I also feel it's important to recognise the validity uneducated taste - which is not random at all, in fact it's much more convergent than the more sophisticated ones - because a., it's here to stay, and b., we live in a free world and everybody has the right to be as uneducated and unsophisticated as they like to.
I'm working from the assumption here that in the past, when you generally couldn't record and publish music on your own, you always had people that got overlooked by people who had the resources to do it for them ... though I've just remembered that we've had close to half a century of independent label activity, where you could publish just about anything, so maybe you're right, though I'll remain a believer in the power of the cheap gear+passion for music combo for now (if only because that's how I got started).
But even for the power of free worldwide distribution alone, I'm willing to tolerate the drawbacks of the current situation. Just a quick illustration: I've been getting into indie lately, and I'm overdosing on crappy live recordings of people playing in tiny halls for some 30 or 40 people, judging from the natural reverb and the density of applause. I'll be honest, the signal-to-noise ratio must be something like 1/50, which is way more than any sensible person will tolerate, and with reason, too, but those diamonds in the rough - great songs performed with real passion - that I do find make it worthwhile for me, because I just can't seem to get this exact sort of fix anywhere else.
Whoa, are they serious? I mean, I follow comedy, films, and sports, not as much as music, but certainly enough to say that music is the only art form here that you can half-claim things have got worse. For my taste, mainstream TV comedy writing has become insanely good in the last ten years and it's still improving, Hollywood film acting (as well as writing and directing) has not progressed that much but it's certainly not got worse, and as a fan of football, as in soccer football, I can say that on the whole, I still see the game elevated to a higher level each season (and in other sports, I see records and such being broken all the time).
billy3000
New member
Reverb? More Please!
I'm a terrible guitar player. I NEED reverb. not sure I ever thought
about whether I actually like it or not
I'm a terrible guitar player. I NEED reverb. not sure I ever thought
about whether I actually like it or not
Robo 5-0
New member
I agree that reverb (and fx in general) are like cooking spices. A little goes a long way, and too much will ruin a perfectly good dish.
I personally like reverb tho... I think it can really give tracks a nice, polished feel. Just remember that a clean pig is still a pig....
I personally like reverb tho... I think it can really give tracks a nice, polished feel. Just remember that a clean pig is still a pig....