How do you handle the Know-it-all musician?

[RawDepth]

I had a guitar player in my studio who insisted that I mic up his amp a certain way. I could tell by the way he talked that he didn't know much about recording. But eventually I learned that he had been in another studio a few years ago and that is how they did it. He was assuming that if I didn't do it exactly that way then I didn't know what I was doing.

I did it his way and it came out so-so. (Hey, that's what the client wanted.) I just feel I could have done him better.

Ever had this happen?

 

[Richard Monroe]

I think the best way in that case is to mic it up his way *and* your way, and then do a mix with both versions. If you want to be a prick, you can always mix it so your version sounds better. But what the hell? You never know. You might end up liking his way better.-Richie

 

[NYMorningstar]

I think the best way in that case is to mic it up his way *and* your way, ...

And don't forget to charge him double

 

[moresound]

just kick him in the arss and get him the heck out of your studio

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I had a guitar player in my studio who insisted that I mic up his amp a certain way. I could tell by the way he talked that he didn't know much about recording. But eventually I learned that he had been in another studio a few years ago and that is how they did it. He was assuming that if I didn't do it exactly that way then I didn't know what I was doing.

I did it his way and it came out so-so. (Hey, that's what the client wanted.) I just feel I could have done him better.

Ever had this happen?

Just grab his guitar and take it out of the room and tell him that you'll be happy to play his guitar for him while he's busy trying to do your job for you.

G.

 

[Todzilla]

If he's paying, it's your job to make him happy. You can offer alternatives, but if he's gonna be stubborn...

I have had to gradually convince the guys in my band that the tone that sounds killer in the bedroom is almost universally problematic in the studio. They starting to learn that the best studio mindset is open-mindedness instead of a dogmatic rigidity.

But it's my studio and they're not paying.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I think the best way in that case is to mic it up his way *and* your way, and then do a mix with both versions. If you want to be a prick, you can always mix it so your version sounds better. But what the hell? You never know. You might end up liking his way better.-Richie

This. Admittedly, I'm not a "pro" engineer myself, but I definitely spend a lot of time micing up my amp, so I have a pretty good idea what I like.

As a guitarist, I'd certainly let the engineer do his thing, but if after hearing the results I wasn't digging it, I certainly wouldn't feel like I was overstepping my bounds by saying, "listen, that's cool but it's not really the sound I'm after. I've had pretty good luck in the past with this mic, positioned here. Can we try a take or two like that, as well?"

As an engineer, I'd look at it almost the same way. The guitarist obviously has a better idea of the tone he's after than I do, so while I might be doing something my way, there's a pretty good chance that this won't get him exactly where he's after, and a not-insignificant chance that he might actually know enough about recording to have some idea how to get the sound he's after. So, again, I think the appropriate response is, "Ok, cool - I've had really good results tracking guitars for the sound you're after in the past this way, so since we lose nothing by trying, let's do a couple takes your way and a couple takes my way, and then listen and see what's working for you.

Hell, if you have available tracks/mics, record everything both ways, and then you have that many more options in the mix. You don't even have to tell the guy which version you used.

That said, if you don't, at this point it (speaking to Glen's point in another recent thread) comes down to the producer's call. If that's the guitarist and he still prefers his way, then do that. If it's you, then listen objectively. If they're both pretty good but the guitarist digs the other way a bit more and you don't think it'll cause problems elsewhere in the mix, then you may as well consider doing it. If you honestly, objectively think your approach is better, then do it. And hell, maybe the guy actually lo and behold knew what he was doing and you're listening back through the monitors and digging the shit out of the tone - congratulations, you just learned a new approach to recording guitars. Even the best of us can still learn.

 

[Vinnydude]

If he is paying you then just do it his way regardless. If people are going to be dicks then let them. Just put laxatives in their drinks!!!! Ha ha ha ha!!!

I really hate people like that!!!

 

[DrewPeterson7]

If he is paying you then just do it his way regardless. If people are going to be dicks then let them. Just put laxatives in their drinks!!!! Ha ha ha ha!!!

I really hate people like that!!!

Slippery slope, though. If you're doing it for a buddy as a favor, whatever, but if you're a pro, it's your reputation on the line. If a lot of people hear the finished product and think, "man, that mix sucks, listen to how shitty those guitars sound!" they're going to assume that you're the one who fucked it up. You shouldn't put yourself into a situation where you can't stand behind your work...

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

As a guitarist, I'd certainly let the engineer do his thing, but if after hearing the results I wasn't digging it, I certainly wouldn't feel like I was overstepping my bounds by saying, "listen, that's cool but it's not really the sound I'm after. I've had pretty good luck in the past with this mic, positioned here. Can we try a take or two like that, as well?"

You're right, that does sound quite reasonable.

Now put yourself in the engineer's shoes when he has 5 out of 5 band members coming up to him just as reasonably, each of them with a different idea of what they wanted to hear form the guitar, not to mention their own instrument. Then what do you do? Which one do you listen to? Or even if you listen just to the guitarist, how many extra takes are you going to indulge him while the clock ticks away? And then when the other guitarist guy comes up and wants equal time and equal respect to be equally happy, what do you do? Spend another hour on him? What if what he wants conflicts with what the first guitarist wants?

What sounds reasonable can get really unreasonable really fast - and they usually do in such situations, IME.

This is why IME, you gotta set the roles early. *YOU* are the engineer. Person X is the producer. Make sure they pick someone to play producer. Of course you listen to what input the guitarists have to offer, and what desires they have, and you do what you can to accommodate them, but you do what YOU think is best. You NO WAY let them tell you how to do it.

What new engineers gotta remember is that there is no such thing as democracy, let alone anarchy, in the studio.

That guitarist is not always right because that guitarist is not your customer. The producer is your customer. (If they are the same person, that's different, of course.) The producer is the one who decides what he thinks things should sound like and it's his/her job to communicate that to you. If the guitarist has a problem with the sound, tell him to talk to the producer, not to you. The producer is your customer and the guitarist's captain, and both you and the guitarist are there to serve him, not each other.

G.

 

[miroslav]

A lot of that stuff needs to be resolved before the start of a session.

A nice sit-down with the band so you can all "discover" each other...get comfortable, etc...identify the "game plan" and who's got what responsibility, so to speak.
Before you start...you need to get a sense of what they will expect from you as the final product...and they need to get a sense of how you like to work.

There shouldn't be a Q&A every step of the way.
If they can't just play and not worry about mic positions and whatnot...then you guys didn't connect during the meet-n-greet.

But sometimes things will come up during a session. Take five…step aside and come to some middle ground, though I think if you sense a lack of experience from the “talent”…don’t cave to their whims, ‘cuz that only demonstrates that you also lack experience.

 

[stevieb]

I am not a pro engineer- but I have worked with one or two, and have watched them do their stuff. The good ones are truly impressive.

I'd say, polietly tell him that you appreciate that he has some mastery of his instrument, and you would never suppose to tell him how to play it- and you expect the same respect. If he insist, I think you should stand firm- HIS job is to make the sound he wants, YOURS is to capture it. The line is well drawn, please do your job and allow me to do mine.

One of the most enjoyable experiences I have ever had in music was participating and observing my son record my 5-piece bluegrass band. He had little experience recording acoustic instruments at that time (the band's instruments were ALL acoustic) and he welcomed the chance to grown. All the members of the band were in their 40's to 60's- we are talking mature adults, some with considerable musicianship and experience- and my son was about 24 at the time. Nonetheless, he quickly sized them up and gained their respect within the first half-hour. He had the entire band taking direction from him, with no second-guessing. That is what you want- for you to have control of the situation. If you do your job well, even before anyoen else steps into the studio, you can maintain that control. One example: A big, impressive mixing board established your authority, even if you only use 8 channels of it.

That guitarist was trying to wrest control from you, and you have a responsibility to the other band menbers, to your own reputation, and even to him, to not allow that to happen. You need to establish that it is YOUR studio, YOUR expertese, YOUR reputation at work.

And if you don't pull that off, insist that the jacket say "Engineered and mixed by Alan Smithee."

 

[DrewPeterson7]

That guitarist is not always right because that guitarist is not your customer. The producer is your customer. (If they are the same person, that's different, of course.) The producer is the one who decides what he thinks things should sound like and it's his/her job to communicate that to you. If the guitarist has a problem with the sound, tell him to talk to the producer, not to you. The producer is your customer and the guitarist's captain, and both you and the guitarist are there to serve him, not each other.

G.

That's probably fair, and I think in the case of those of us here who REALLY know their shit cold, then you're right, you're probably better off making a snap decision on whether or not the guys sounds like he has the faintest idea what he's talking about, and if not politely telling him to go screw.

However, on the flip side, I think it's also fair to say that most of us, and I definitely include myself, certainly DON'T know our shit cold, and furthermore many of those same people also take paying customers. In those situations, it's certainly possible that the guitarist may have as much if not more experience than you (not you specifically, but rather that aforementioned group of hobbyists who nonetheless book bands in their studio) at micing up an amp (expecially on what works with their particular amp).

I don't say this specifically with RawDepth in mind, as I've never heard his work, but I think any one of us who finds ourselves in that situation needs also to have a pretty objective sense of their own abilities, and should try to suss out the background of the musician who wants something done a certain way. If you can't say with perfect confidence, checking your ego at the door, that you're much better at micing a guitar amp than the musician, then unless you don't have the needed studio time you probably should hear him out.

You? You're probably justified in telling the guy to shut up, do his thing, and let you do yours. I just don't know if I can say the same about myself.

 

[RawDepth]

Original poster here...

I think I have a good solution to this awkward situation. (Albeit, I didn't think of it at the time. I wish I had. Oh well, we learn from our mistakes.)

I should have asked that guitar player if he was entirely happy with the way his guitar amp sounded on that last studio project/CD.

If he said yes, then he wins. The man knows what he wants.

If he said no, then ask..."Are you sure that you want me to duplicate everything exactly the way that studio did?"

I am betting he would then concede.

 

[bozmillar]

cool thread. I like the points of view I'm seeing here. From what I've seen, there needs to be a decided "producer." Someone who has the final word in which direction the music is going. If you are the engineer and not the producer, then it's really your job to caputre what the producer tells you to capture.

Most local bands don't have a producer, they just fly by the seat of their pants. In those situations, I always sit down with them and let them know the role of the producer and find out if any of them already play this role. If none of them do, then you can tell them that you will play that role, but someone has to have the final word.

If I'm recording a band for free that doesn't have a producer, I tell them that part of the deal in getting a free recording is that I get to play producer. Rarely do people argue with that.

If I'm charging the band to record and I'm going to play producer, I charge them extra. People tend to trust your judgement better when they are paying you more.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

However, on the flip side, I think it's also fair to say that most of us, and I definitely include myself, certainly DON'T know our shit cold, and furthermore many of those same people also take paying customers. In those situations, it's certainly possible that the guitarist may have as much if not more experience than you

Well in that case, the problem is not a shit-talking guitarist. The problem is an engineer taking money for something he is not ready to do.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Well in that case, the problem is not a shit-talking guitarist. The problem is an engineer taking money for something he is not ready to do.

No shit, but let's be realistic, how many thousands of times a day do you think that happens?

I'll be honest, I probably shouldn't take part in this discussion because I'm totally coming at this from the perspective of a hobbyist, and not from a professional. I work alone mostly, and am devouring as much information on the subject as I can. The times I get a chance to collaborate with other musicians are so rare that I'm probably having a hard time differentiating between my viewpoint as a musician working with another musician, versus my theoretical viewpoint as a pro engineer working with a musician. I think Steveb's post really drove that home.

 

[CoolMusicNotes]

I had a guitar player in my studio who insisted that I mic up his amp a certain way. I could tell by the way he talked that he didn't know much about recording. But eventually I learned that he had been in another studio a few years ago and that is how they did it. He was assuming that if I didn't do it exactly that way then I didn't know what I was doing.

I did it his way and it came out so-so. (Hey, that's what the client wanted.) I just feel I could have done him better.

Ever had this happen?

Smack him with his own guitar! just kidding.

Richard is right, why not do it his way and your way then see which one is better.

 

[moresound]

And then smack him with his own guitar

 

[Richard Monroe]

I guess it's just my opinion that great art results from collaboration, which does not mean anarchy. Some people, as we all know, are meant to play, or dance, or work-together. Some aren't. I'm not saying I'm going to cave to a clueless, arrogant jerk. It's just that first, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt before I assume he's clueless. So to assess that, I really need to know what mic(s) he wants to use, and where he wants to stick them. People play better when they are having fun, and people have more fun when they feel like they are part of the creative process. But- I know more about being a producer than I do about being an engineer. At least two of the people I worked with on my first CD had sworn they'd never walk into a recording studio again, because of the way they were treated by producers and engineers

I always try to remember that musicians haven't cornered the market on being an arrogant clueless jerk. In the case of a couple people I've worked with, I wound up being a paid consultant to assist them in planning their studios, and we remain friends to this day. There's nothing that's quite as much fun as getting paid to spend other people's money. It also gets you some wonderful deal-making power with gear retailers.

If you mic up an amp his way and your way, and then make him deal with blind listening comparisons, everybody learns something. If he's clueless, you'll learn that. If you are better at it than he is, he'll learn that (maybe). And once he does, you'll get less resistance when you want to do something he hasn't seen before. There's also the frightening possibility that happened to me with one backing vocal track. The layered combination of my way and her way was better than either one alone. I try to start every recording session prepared to listen, to teach, and to learn.

Sometimes, what you learn is that it's just a bad fit. In the end, sometimes the best thing is to let the person work with someone else. If nothing else, it gets the mouthy nimrod out of your studio! I don't want to play in a band with every musician I meet, and there are definitely people I won't work with in the studio for any amount of money they could come up with.-Richie