Neck Question for Muttley

[Zaphod B]

Hey, Mutt -

I have an interesting situation on my cheap Xaviere Strat-like guitar.

The neck, with the truss rod adjustment nut at only finger-tightness, has very little relief - it's almost flat. I can tighten the truss rod nut and achieve an upward bow in the (middle of the) neck (is this called negative relief?), but backing off all the way on the truss rod does not result in any significant relief.

The bridge is a Wilkinson vibrato unit, and it is half-blocked - the base of the bridge rests on the body so it is a down-vibrato only.

Everything else is OK - it plays well, there is no buzzing, no fretting out, and for now it's not an issue. But I'm afraid that at some point that neck is going to move enough that it needs some relief and it won't be possible.

Can you think of a non-invasive fix?

Edit: The strings are regular gauge 10 - 46.

 

[muttley600]

Basically you have zero to negative relief? A few questions, is this a maple fingerboard? What timbers? Has it had a refret as far as you can tell? Are you sure the truss rod is actually backed off all the way and not sticking? Try giving it a good flex with the hex backed right off. They do stick believe it or not. You can ignore the bridge etc as the issue seems to be with the neck. If it isn't choking now all the better as string tension will help it stay that way.

With strings slack and the truss rod backed off stick a straight edge along the f/b and let me know what you see.

If it is a genuine back bow then the fix isn't easy or cheap especially on lacquered f/b's. Stick some heavier strings on it and enjoy the extra dynamics you can get out of it as a result and build up your finger stregth at the same time..

 

[Zaphod B]

Actually it has a very slight positive relief - just enough to keep it playable - but that's as far as it will bow.

It's a maple neck with a rosewood fingerboard. The guitar was bought new but there's no telling about the provenance of the neck since it was sourced by Guitar Fetish from some anonymous Indonesian guitar factory.

I'm pretty sure that I have all the tension off the truss rod. The nut turns very freely and it feels like it's just backing off the rod. I will loosen it up and give the neck a yank or two to make sure nothing is binding.

I'll loosen all the strings and check it with a straightedge as you recommended, and I'll let you know what I see. I'm fully prepared to throw on some heavier strings if it ever becomes necessary and build up some decent calluses on my fingertips.

Do you think talcum powder would help?

 

[muttley600]

Actually it has a very slight positive relief - just enough to keep it playable - but that's as far as it will bow.

Thats exactly what you need. I build necks dead flat, the strings pull a little relief in there. The sole purpose of a truss rod is to counteract the tension of the strings. With the guitars I play I use 12-53's and when the rod is adjusted I have a cigarette paper of relief nothing more.

It's a maple neck with a rosewood fingerboard. The guitar was bought new but there's no telling about the provenance of the neck since it was sourced by Guitar Fetish from some anonymous Indonesian guitar factory.

It is possible that the difference between the amount the rosewood has moved compared to the maple may have pulled the neck out. WWhat is the weather like were you are right now. Dry, wet?

I'm pretty sure that I have all the tension off the truss rod. The nut turns very freely and it feels like it's just backing off the rod. I will loosen it up and give the neck a yank or two to make sure nothing is binding.

Tighten her up and give it a half turn to make sure the rod is working properly.

I'll loosen all the strings and check it with a straightedge as you recommended, and I'll let you know what I see. I'm fully prepared to throw on some heavier strings if it ever becomes necessary and build up some decent calluses on my fingertips.

12-53's anything less is for pussies.

Do you think talcum powder would help?

Have you learned nothing. This is a job for WD40.

 

[Zaphod B]

Thats exactly what you need. I build necks dead flat, the strings pull a little relief in there. The sole purpose of a truss rod is to counteract the tension of the strings. With the guitars I play I use 12-53's and when the rod is adjusted I have a cigarette paper of relief nothing more.

I like a teenie-weenie bit more than that. If this neck stays where it is everything will be just fine.

It is possible that the difference between the amount the rosewood has moved compared to the maple may have pulled the neck out. WWhat is the weather like were you are right now. Dry, wet?

Yes. Also cold, hot. It's Texas, it changes daily. But the neck has been stable at its current position throughout it all over the last couple of years.

Tighten her up and give it a half turn to make sure the rod is working properly.

Done that. It seems to be working fine. I can get backbow no problem when I tighten it, and the neck returns to shape nicely when I reduce the tension.

12-53's anything less is for pussies.

Oh, well!

Have you learned nothing. This is a job for WD40.

That's just the opinion of a know-it-all "expert."

 

[Milnoque]

I was under the impression that Xaviere used double acting truss rods. I'm surprised that's not the case.

 

[Zaphod B]

I was under the impression that Xaviere used double acting truss rods. I'm surprised that's not the case.

Milnoque, they do on some of their guitars. Not this one, apparently.

 

[Milnoque]

Dang, too bad

 

[Zaphod B]

Fixed that problem!

I decided to use this guitar for drop tuning (all strings down a full step).

So I threw on a set of Ernie Ball "Not Even Slinky" strings in 12-56 gauge. Put a third spring on the trem to counteract the increased tension. The neck developed a very nice relief, thank you very much, so much so that I needed to tighten the truss rod to flatten it back out.

All is good in the neck department.

But those fucking strings are killing me, even drop-tuned to D-G-C-F-A-D. And it's making that guitar sound very....different.

 

[TelePaul]

Y'all need to SRV that shit up Zaph, pay tribute to a fellow Texan who liked his strings heavy and detuned! Word!

 

[Zaphod B]

Y'all need to SRV that shit up Zaph, pay tribute to a fellow Texan who liked his strings heavy and detuned! Word!

Well, yeah, I ran it though my Egnater's Marshall module last night and it sounded pretty fucking righteous. Hard as hell to play, though!

 

[TelePaul]

Well, yeah, I ran it though my Egnater's Marshall module last night and it sounded pretty fucking righteous. Hard as hell to play, though!

Mate, you're gonna rip the piss out of me, but I've recently set-up half my guitars with tens and I'm finding the jump from 9's is tough on the fingers. I reach for bends that aren't there and choke out with slides. They do seem to be easier to dial in a nice action with - not sure if that's just me, maybe Multi will stop by to confirm/disconfirm

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Hard as hell to play, though!

Feel that? That ain't pain, that's weakness leaving your body!

 

[Lt. Bob]

Well, yeah, I ran it though my Egnater's Marshall module last night and it sounded pretty fucking righteous. Hard as hell to play, though!

I'm really not sure what the issue is.
You DID say there were no buzzes right?
And you also said "very little" relief which technically would mean there is some relief ..... just very little right?

If both of those iare true ...... then what's the big deal? Why put on heavy strings in an effort to bow the neck and thus, need to adjust the truss rod?
The only time I worry about my truss rod is if there's an actual problem ...... otherwise who cares?

Is this a newish guitar? If so ..... just stay with your 10's ...... I garuntee you in a year there will be a bit more relief.

And, to me, 12's suck on a 25.5 scale length unless all you're doing is rythym. I really like to be able to bend a step and a half when I want. I have moved to 11's on my 24.75 scale gits and I'm noticing that now the 10's on the 25.5's are starting to feel a little 'rubbery' so I may go up there too.

 

[Zaphod B]

Bob, the neck wasn't really a problem but I have been curious to see if it would respond to heavier strings by bowing, or if the truss rod was hung up in the pocket.

Using a standard set of 10s, the neck was essentially flat (a tiny bit of relief on the bass side, flat on the treble side) with zero tension on the truss rod. I didn't feel like that was the best situation but as it hadn't moved it wasn't creating a problem. There was a tiny bit of buzz on the high E string but not an issue.

I needed to dedicate one of my guitars to a full-step drop tune, so that's why I experimented with the 12s. They're way too heavy IMO but at least I know that the neck will move. I'll wear these strings out and then try 11s.

Edit: I've had the guitar for over 2 years and it had never developed any additional neck relief. I was getting worried that if for some reason it started developing a back bow, it could become a problem. I dunno why I thought that could happen - just obsessing, probably.

 

[Armistice]

Have you learned nothing. This is a job for WD40.

You'll get greater relief if you boil your strings too...

 

[Lt. Bob]

Bob, the neck wasn't really a problem but I have been curious to see if it would respond to heavier strings by bowing, or if the truss rod was hung up in the pocket.

ahhhh .......................... gotcha.

 

[muttley600]

Bob, the neck wasn't really a problem but I have been curious to see if it would respond to heavier strings by bowing, or if the truss rod was hung up in the pocket.

........................

Heavier gauge strings = more tension = more neck relief

There is an easy way to tell if the rod is fubar. Take string off or slacken them to nothing. Back the rod off and then pinch tighten it. Measure the relief. Tighten half a turn and measure again. It should have pulled back. If you have no change try a careful further half turn, going slowly.

Sometimes on strat/tele style rods you need to pull in quite a bit of slack on the rod to get the barb to bite into the neck and get it pinch tight.. Thats normally only the case first time it's tightened.

If a full turn does nothing seek advice.

 

[muttley600]

Mate, you're gonna rip the piss out of me, but I've recently set-up half my guitars with tens and I'm finding the jump from 9's is tough on the fingers. I reach for bends that aren't there and choke out with slides. They do seem to be easier to dial in a nice action with - not sure if that's just me, maybe Multi will stop by to confirm/disconfirm

As long as the neck is flat when not under any string tension or rod compression then the string gauge is not an issue. The only time it's an issue is if the neck has a concave relief. Not good and not right.

 

[muttley600]

You guy's talking about 12's being too heavy are pussies.

Man up and get some real strings on there..