one of the most important questions in music. no jokes

  • Thread starter Thread starter marioantigod
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
.. and then i use those ideas, that come one by one in my brain in miliseconds, to improvise.
...i try my best to develop better ways for my playin and songwriting.
Click to expand...
miroslav said:
If you are thinking about what to play while you are playing...
...you're already lost.
Click to expand...
Maybe not necessarily.

Either you first compose something and then practice it note-for-note until it becomes pure muscle memory and you don't need to be actively "thinking" while playing...
...or if you want to free-improvise as you play, then you actually have to stop actively *thinking* about what you are playing and let your emotions drive your fingers.
Of course, that's only possible if you've already learned your way around the fretboard real good...otherwise, yeah...your fingers are going to be 5 seconds behind your thinking about what notes to play..
Click to expand...

I'm just going to mention a small distinction or intermediate state I see between improvising in the general sense and 'song/melody writing, though 'improvising covers a huge overlap there.
In singing I was taught 'Think it and sound it'. The implication being, knowing' the note (i.e. hearing' them or the melody in your head accurately) is the direct path to singing it, in pitch and without flaying around trying to find it. Can you sing the 7th' harmony on a song you're familiar with but have never sung before? Yes if you can hear it coming. Even amongst other instruments and voices preceding it.
This works wonderfully in singing.
An instrument simply adds a second (or more?) layer of disconnect to be bridged.
I can do pretty well in that regard vocally, but not nearly on my guitar. (From what I see there is a huge difference in the amount of work it takes between the two.)
But also a distinction of hearing' riffing in my head and transporting that to the instrument (or as you alluded to not even hearing' it, just flying?), and song writing' where you might actually be taking the time think it'.

This brings to mind another oddity (? perhaps). I have heard of trained musicians who while can site read perfectly.. but can not improvise? Sorry if this strays OT.
 
theDAWstudio said:
I agree with most of the other posts that expression like this comes from a lot of practice. I thought I would add another insight that no one else mentioned. If you watch some of the jazz guitarists/singer play their vocal scat guitar lick duos (where they sing and play the same line), you will see that same kind of expression as quoted above. The cool thing is that the key to doing that is not singing what you are playing, it is playing what you are singing. It is much easier and more natural for us to improvise with our voice (until we have put in thousands of hours into an instrument) so try following your voice. Sing a melody or riff, and then try to play it. The voice is really the most personal instrument, because it is physically part of us. Use that to your advantage.
Click to expand...

Wow. I think you and I said some very similar things here.
 
theDAWstudio said:
so try following your voice. Sing a melody or riff, and then try to play it. The voice is really the most personal instrument, because it is physically part of us. Use that to your advantage.
Click to expand...

u are the one that understands me 100%. but u dont answer my question:
how to make fingers follow that singing/creative thinking/emotions? especially then improvising, when u dont have extra time. what is your method? can u describe that "and then try to play it."?

that is the question.
 
please read all posts in this thread before answering.
otherwise we will be out of time.
thanks.


theDAWstudio said:
I thought I would add another insight that no one else mentioned. The cool thing is that the key to doing that is not singing what you are playing, it is playing what you are singing. The voice is really the most personal instrument, because it is physically part of us. Use that to your advantage.
Click to expand...

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees. it it is the main thing about playin!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and i mentioned it 3 or 5 times here already. and im already tired doing that. please, other responders, read entire thread before replying, or it will take forewer. but how to make fingers use what is under them AFTER u created something in your brain and sung it, when improvising?

and many thanks for your help
 
Last edited:
please read all posts in this thread before answering.
otherwise we will be out of time.
thanks.


mixsit said:
An instrument simply adds a second (or more?) layer of disconnect to be bridged.
I can do pretty well in that regard vocally, but not nearly on my guitar. (From what I see there is a huge difference in the amount of work it takes between the two.)
But also a distinction of hearing' riffing in my head and transporting that to the instrument (or as you alluded to not even hearing' it, just flying?), and song writing' where you might actually be taking the time think it'.

This brings to mind another oddity (? perhaps). I have heard of trained musicians who while can site read perfectly.. but can not improvise? Sorry if this strays OT.
Click to expand...

this quote and all other words u say are 100% truth, but....

u asking the same question as i do: how to bridge that another layer of disconnection? especially when improvising?

THIS IS THE QUESTION! im very tired repeating that over again.

thanks, mate.
 
Last edited:
I play lead guitar and improvise some so get asked a similar question occasionally. How do you know what you are going to play next? Simple answer is you don't. Empty the vessel and experience the moment.

Take yourself out of the equation and the music will play itself. The time lapse you have is you trying to control everything. Let it go and let the spirit take over.:eek:
 
raven46 said:
1. Turn off your brain
2. Turn on your ears

or just get http://www.amazon.com/Effortless-Ma...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261570762&sr=8-2
Click to expand...

very interesting. could u describe what this books is about, and what u understood from it?
how to:
1. Turn off your brain
2. Turn on your ears

i think my question could be almost answered here. im sure that to turn your ears on u have to change the way of thinking. cause without thinking (some of u call it emotions, "fly", spirit, but i call it thinking, creative thinking that generates ideas from nowhere), as it was mentioned by one of us, u cant sing, and playin instrument is even more difficult. music is exact notes. if u dont think prior to hitting them, u wont hit them. u will leave everything "to a fortune". and that fortune will NOT help u.
fortune will keep u in a range of "i suck".


so how to Turn on your ears? i hope u agree that it is hard to understand. so i need your help. give me your understanding prior me buying that book.

and my main question remains the same: HOW TO BRIDGE FAST IT ALL TO FINGERS AND GUITAR STRINGS?
many thanks
 
Last edited:
NYMorningstar said:
I play lead guitar and improvise some so get asked a similar question occasionally. How do you know what you are going to play next? Simple answer is you don't. Empty the vessel and experience the moment.

Take yourself out of the equation and the music will play itself. The time lapse you have is you trying to control everything. Let it go and let the spirit take over.:eek:
Click to expand...

u made me to repeat myself again. i know what to play next, BUT how to bridge it with the fingers????????????????????? get it?
u say "you trying to control everything". how???????

thanks
 
marioantigod said:
u made me to repeat myself again. i know what to play next, BUT how to bridge it with the fingers????????????????????? get it?
u say "you trying to control everything". how???????

thanks
Click to expand...
I'm real good at making people repeat themselves :D

Here's the control - "i know what to play next"

Now I ask you, How can you call it improvising if you know what to play next?

Forget "i know what to play next" and rely on the spirit. I guess you have to have faith.
 
NYMorningstar said:
Here's the control - "i know what to play next"
Click to expand...

u answering your question. "i know" means that u know what to play. call it faith, voodoo, creativity, talent. i call it "thinking, fast thinking". and i have plenty of that,
but do u remember what is my question?
bridging that > to > fingers > to > strings. and fast.

and i did NOT receive ANY answer yet. i still hope...there is a saying: hope is for the fools, but it dies the last
 
marioantigod said:
very interesting. could u describe what this books is about, and what u understood from it?
how to:
1. Turn off your brain
2. Turn on your ears

i think my question could be almost answered here. im sure that to turn your ears on u have to change the way of thinking. cause without thinking (some of u call it emotions, "fly", spirit, but i call it thinking, creative thinking that generates ideas from nowhere), as it was mentioned by one of us, u cant sing, and playin instrument is even more difficult. music is exact notes. if u dont think prior to hitting them, u wont hit them. u will leave everything "to a fortune". and that fortune will NOT help u.


so how to Turn on your ears? i hope u agree that it is hard to understand. so i need your help. give me your understanding prior me buying that book.

and my main question remains the same: HOW TO BRIDGE IT ALL TO A FINGERS AND GUITAR STRINGS?
many thanks
Click to expand...


The book teaches you to turn off your brain as NYMorningstar put it to "empty the vessel". Its not an automatic thing its like everthing else, it take lots of pratice and understanding. If you think of the classical pianist and just before they start playing they take a deep breath and place their fingers on the keyboard. Kenny Werner says that what the pianist is doing is unconsciously turning off their brain and entering a "space" where they tune out everything and just let their fingers do the work of following the music they already know. Werner shows you through meditation how to get into this "space" anytime anywhere.
Your right you have to change the way you think and Kenny even says that what he is doing is brain washing but what he is doing is trying to get the reader to lose whatever negativity and inhibitions or ego they may have about themselves as musicians. I listened to the meditation cd once or twice so as of yet I hav'nt been able to achive this space but that was never really my goal when I bought the book. It was recommened by a friend who is a very good musician and he says he can enter the space and I believe he can from watching him play. He has always been a rock\Irish trad guitarist and in the past year since he got the book he started learning jazz. When I watch him play its like hes been playing jazz all his life

Inspiration comes from within the music, you do not let your brain lead you, leave that to the music. What seperates the really good musicians from average joes like myself is their ear and a great understanding of their instrument and music in general not as in knowing a bunch of theory which is all well and good and greatly beneficial but they know how everthing relates to each other and everything else. Even if they dont know the names of the notes they are playing. As Jimi Hendrix once replied when someone asked him "How do you play guitar?" Jimi : I play with my ears"

The bridge you are looking for is your ear. If you know what every note and chord sounds like then you fingers will find them as you learn to understand your instrument. As has been said numerous times that comes from plenty of pratice, training your ear, understanding the movement of music and jammin with as many musicians as you can. The more you do that the relationship between ear and finger will become stronger and improvisation will become second nature

If you want to understand more about improvisation start studying the style and technique of guys like Thelonious Monk, Art Tatum, Dizzy Gillespie, Duke Ellington and Miles Davis these are some of the true masters of improvisation

You definately need to watch The art of Jazz by George Benson. I think its on youtube
 
marioantigod said:
and i did NOT receive ANY answer yet. i still hope...there is a saying: hope is for the fools, but it dies the last
Click to expand...

Yes you did, it's called practice. Practice moving your fingers. Start slow and work up the speed. Practice riffs. Many different riffs. Riffs that are 1 beat long, 2 beats, 4 beats, 2 measures, etc. Start slow and work your speed up. Practice. This has been said many times.

Then listen to other songs. Learn the songs. Recognize the riffs in the songs that you already learned. Then practice improvising on your own. String together many riffs, throw in some scales. Then do something totally different and spontaneous.

It all starts with Practice.
 
marioantigod said:
u answering your question. "i know" means that u know what to play. call it faith, voodoo, creativity, talent. i call it "thinking, fast thinking". and i have plenty of that,
but do u remember what is my question?
bridging that > to > fingers > to > strings. and fast.
[/COLOR][/B]
Click to expand...
I remember your question ok but the "i have plenty of that" & "i know what to play next" & "fingers > to > strings. and fast" is what is 'causing' the time interval. You are not the source, the spirit is. Don't try to control it. What if it isn't supposed to be fast? Take yourself out of the equation like raven46 is saying, turn off your brain and you will be pleasantly surprised at what takes place.
 
Chili said:
Yes you did, it's called practice.
It all starts with Practice.
Click to expand...

yes u r right. practice is all what is left for me by now.
i'll keep doing what i do (i described my approach in the very first posting of this thread:visualising what is under the fingers before playing it.). i cant find nothing better by far. BETTER COMPROMISE. i hope that more people will respond to my questions and share their approaches with others. im lucky cause i have nothing to loose:)

i watched suggested benson's lessons. they start here (total 7 chunks):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kThHgJNZmXg&feature=related

let me say few thoughts about it.
benson starts with:
1. "i dont know what i do, really. its a collection of IDEAS, THOUGHTS, technics taken from others.
2. "i DECIDED to go that way in the middle of the song".
3. "and i did in on PURPOSE, kinda test myself".
4. "everybody has their unic way pf approaching things"

----------------
well, i think first 3 statements prove my way of doing things. u cant play or sing before getting the ideas from your brain.
as others say:

theDAWstudio
The cool thing is that the key to doing that is not singing what you are playing, it is playing what you are singing.

mixsit
In singing I was taught 'Think it and sound it'. The implication being, knowing' the note (i.e. hearing' them or the melody in your head accurately) is the direct path to singing it, in pitch and without flaying around trying to find it. An instrument simply adds a second (or more?) layer of disconnect to be bridged.

u cant leave it for the accident or fortune. it does not work. IF U REFUSE TO THINK BEFORE DOING THINGS, I WONT LISTEN TO YOUR WORDS OR MUSIC. GET IT??? IT WONT BE MUSIC, IT WILL BE EMPTY DELIRIUMS.

and the 4th statement is what i am after and want to hear from u all: HOW TO BRIDGE IDEAS TO FINGERS, AND HOW TO MAKE IT SOUND PLEASANT, PROFESSIONAL? HOW TO SOLVE THAT BROKEN LINK, CONNECTION ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????SINCE IT IS A BROKEN LINK, THE COMPROMISE MUST BE FOUND. im going crazy practising and finding the better ways.

thanks for understanding.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top