How do I determine stage vs recording mics?

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greatpaws

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Hi,
When searching thru the Equipment- >Microphones forum, I'm a little stumped.
I'm searching for a mic which is appropriate for open mic/ coffee shop places for a female vocalist (need clear and cutting thru noise- think Tori Amos-like clarity and trills in a bar) and of course there's hundreds of recommendations. However, unless I'm totally misunderstanding, I thought dynamic mics are for "live" performances and condenser mics are for home recording. However, I've seen the sm7b recommended, the NT3, etc and other condenser mics. I realize large diaphram condensor mics are out of the question, but are SDC's ok?
A shure sm57/58 makes me sound like I'm singing thru an am radio. I have a senheiser e835 currently for live but ... eh. I have a perception 200 and I wish I could find a mic that's appropriate for stage use that is as clear as the 200! I've looked at the Shure Beta 57a and the Shure Beta 87 A and C but they are all listed as condensor mics but *look* like dynamic mics... what gives? :) How do I know what's appropriate for stage vs recording and what's not?
Any advice/ suggestions would be great!
 
IMO/E, there's no difference. The right mic is the right mic. I have no qualms at all putting FrankeNeumann (long story - nice mic) in front of someone in a live situation (and have on too many occasions for me to count).

Granted - It's not for hand-holding...

So there are the 87's (yes, condenser - Since when does a microphone *look* like a condenser vs. a dynamic...?), Neumann 105's (a personal favorite if the vocalist needs a condenser in a live situation).

(The SM7b is a dynamic)

Anyway - There's no "this is for that" (except in places with typically bad information - and then it's usually followed up by other garbage like "Use a tube preamp for that warm, analog sound" or "Record as hot as you can without clipping" or other nonsensical babbling). You use the right mic for the right source, regardless of the venue, but within the physical limitations of the venue (a hand-held condenser instead of a large diaphragm, shock-mounted mic for example).
 
Walk up to the mic. Look around you. If you are standing on a stage, then it's a stage mic. If you are in a studio, it's a studio mic.

That is really the only difference.
 
Oh- thank you! I guess what I was trying to determine is if there were some guidelines. My perception picks up EVERYTHING in the room, which would be a nightmare on stage. I'm not familiar with a wide range of mics so I didn't know if that would happen with certain kinds. I'm just trying to find a clear mic and avoid picking up all the background noise.

My "look like " comment is probably just due to inexperience. :) When I saw the sm7b I thought "well where would you hold that?" and thought maybe you're not supposed to hold it- that it's used in a studio only.

Thank you for your help!
 
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there ARE guidelines, I have to disagree with the general statements here otherwise.

in the studio, ANYTHING that sounds good IS good.

on the stage... with very rare exceptions, many studio targetted condensor mics simple have too little side and rear rejection to avoid feedback on the stage at modern high volumes.

there are always exceptions, but you'll find that most stage mics have a very narrow pickup pattern with very strong off axis rejection and very little 180 degree pickup.

I've tried several studio condensors in cardoid or hypercardoid pattern settings that simply picked up way too much stuff to the sides and rear to be usable on the stage. I mean, rear pickup is part of the hypercardoid pattern traditionally, but still some stage mics manage to be hypercardoid without that huge lobe at 180 degrees.

also stage mics for vocals tend to really emphasize the vocal range without reproducing much in the low frequency area or very high frequency range.

and finally, stage mics are typically much stronger physically than studio mics.

ever held or used an sm58? ever held or used a U87? try swapping their roles :-)

so again - I think for studio use, just get whatever works, I use "stage" mics in the studio all the time. but I have almost never had success using studio mics on the stage, at least not for rock concert or gigging types of stage work (live musical theatre and such might be different).

cheers,
Don
 
My "look like " comment is probably just due to inexperience. When I saw the sm7b I thought "well where would you hold that?" and thought maybe you're not supposed to hold it- that it's used in a studio only.
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Definitely not for holding (except James Hetfield...), but no stranger to the stage. Not mine, anyway...
 
PS - I should qualify my remarks a little further - I haven't done significant live sound for a couple of decades :-)

and Massive Master's of course correct about the specific mics he's mentioning. but as far as guidelines goes, my post still stands. overall you'll find that mics like the sm7 have plenty of side and rear rejection so will work great live or in the studio. same with the 87 or 105 (or 535 or whatever condensor that has enough side/rear rejection and solid enough build quality and enough rejection of handling noise to work in live situations). those mics all work great live or in the studio. at4054 is another great example.

but some of those (at least the ones I brought up, 535 and 4054) are mics that are actually intended for live use but are great enough to work well in the studio as well.

so really, they fit into my guidelines pretty well too, where again, I'll use any live mic in the studio if it sounds good, but I have trouble using most examples of mics intended for the studio in live situations.
 
Well, I'll freely admit that I'm not going to put FrankeNuemann in front of someone without actually talking with them for a while and seeing if they're worthy of my trust to have such a mic in front of them in a live situation.

Well, I suppose that mattered in the studio also... I'm not one to put some $4k mic in front of some immature, disrespectful d-bag who's going to keep knocking into it... Stage or studio. Even if the mics are rented.
 
While not every mic will lend itself to being a vocal mic on stage in a death metal band, that's a fuction of what you are trying to do with it.

I have rutinely used LDC's to mic guitar cabinets on stage. I just got done a couple weeks ago using my Fathead II to mic a claranet during a big band show. I've used LDC's for groups of background singers, etc...

I've even seen KSM27's used to mic toms on a drum kit live.

No, I would not use a U87 as a handheld mic for the front man of a punk band, but I might consider it to mic an acoustic guitar at a bluegrass concert.
 
What Dkelly said.

The situation is going to have its own set of priorities.
 
greatpaws said:
...I'm searching for a mic which is appropriate for open mic/ coffee shop places for a female vocalist (need clear and cutting thru noise-
.. How do I know what's appropriate for stage vs recording and what's not?
Click to expand...
Overheads, guitar cabs, lots of places on the backline LDC's, SDC's, ribbons, sure the lines blur.
But OP said 'live vocal. How many of those studio favs are set up level wise and voiced to work a half inch off the diaphragm? There's a heck of a lot more than even pattern control going on there.
Wasn't the 4054 the one touted as/like' the 4050's capsule? Can we use these as a case in point?

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/194ac5d60380d624/index.html

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/resource_library/literature/b68d0806ccb87a89/at4054.pdf
10db less sensitive, completely different response? Notice both responses' are at 12" or greater. (...add a sh*t load of low end at a half inch.
 
Yo Greatpaws! Both condensers and dynamics are used in the studio and on stage. Some condensers are made specifically for use on stage, and are handheld, like the Beta87. Condensers on stage are more often used on live sound stages or smaller gigs, acoustic, solo work, etc., because they are more prone to feedback at high volumes, so you won't often see them used by full-on rock bands. The best dynamics are mostly made for radio work, and are not hand held, so they are OK for someone that plays piano or guitar, etc. If you need to hold it in your hand, it just doesn't work.
To answer your question about large and small diaphragm condensers, small diaphragms are not usually used for vocals, as the small diaphragm tends to make them overly sensitive, and more feedback prone, due to better off-axis response. There are exceptions. Mostly, the kind of mics you are looking for tend to be a bit on the pricey side, so prepare for a little sticker shock. Looking for deals on ebay is often a good plan. That said, here are my recommendations, based on 30 years or so of using stage vocal mics for solo performance.

dynamics (not hand held) - Shure SM7b, Electrovoice RE20, Sennheiser MD441. These are all great mics. The 441 would probably meet your needs best if you don't need a hand held mic, but it doesn't come cheap.

hand held condensers- I'm not a big fan of the beta 87. I like AKG C535 a lot. The top of the line is Neumann KMS104 (cardioid) and KMS105 (supercardioid). I prefer the 104. At the kind of gigs I do, feedback is not the biggest issue, and I prefer the cardioid polar pattern because it's more forgiving. The KMS104 will do everything you want, except be cheap. Note that by and large, condensers need phantom power provided to them back up the cable, and not all PA's do that, so if you use stage condensers with house PA's, it's not a bad idea to travel with a phantom power supply, such as:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=1989&Category=Recording_Accessories

Some other alternatives include Sennheiser e865 (cheaper) and e965 (great mic-pricey).

Here's a less expensive, weird looking alternative from a respected company:

http://www.sweetwater.com/c398--Blue_Microphones--Condenser_Microphones

and some others by Audio-Technica, even cheaper:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AT2010/

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ATM710/

Here's an inexpensive alternative by AKG:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/C5/


So, what would I do if I were you? Depends on the budget. If you have the money, buy a Neumann KMS104 and never look back. For a mid-priced mic, AKG C535. Budget smaller? Look at B.L.U.E. or Audio-Technica. Hope this helps.-Richie
 
Thank you thank you thank you! Those recomendations are great! I guess I'm in the mid - price range- the AKG c535 looks great! And yes, I had been looking at the Shure Beta 87 A and C (still couldn't figure out if there was a "better" option between the two). Does the Beta have a coloring you don't prefer or can you explain what you didn't like about it (so I can watch out for it)...? And those other mics are GREAT to know about so I can slowly build my mic collection. :)( I've already been trying to find someplace where I can try a ADK Vienna...)

However, I didn't comprehend this statement
"http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/re...a89/at4054.pdf
10db less sensitive, completely different response? Notice both responses' are at 12" or greater. (...add a sh*t load of low end at a half inch."

And this is due to my own lack of knowledge- were you saying this *is* a good mic for live vocals or is the case in point against it?
(I'm reading Harvey's 84 page pdf but it's slow going...)

Thanks to all of you for your comments- they really help in my education!!
 
I'm a big fan of EV mics for stage use ...... I find them to be VERY feedback resistant.

EV 767 is a good one.
I actually use and prefer the N/D 70 but it's no longer made but the 767 is a great stage mic.
 
Just for laughs, one time I took a Neumann KM84 to a restaurant gig I was doing. It was crazy - it picked up EVERYTHING, if you scratched your balls it would have come through the pa loud and clear.
I'm picky about my stage vocal mic - I've tried many that haven't worked for me (SM57, SM58, EV ND 727), and eventually got to using a Sennheiser 441, which I like 'cause it has a "condenser-like" high end, but in the studio I find it's got a hard sound that I'm not fond of.
What I found was the the recording microphone "upgrade dance" went on for years until I got Neumanns and then it stopped abruptly.
 
greatpaws said:
Thank you thank you thank you! Those recomendations are great! I guess I'm in the mid - price range- the AKG c535 looks great! And yes, I had been looking at the Shure Beta 87 A and C (still couldn't figure out if there was a "better" option between the two). Does the Beta have a coloring you don't prefer or can you explain what you didn't like about it (so I can watch out for it)...? And those other mics are GREAT to know about so I can slowly build my mic collection. :)( I've already been trying to find someplace where I can try a ADK Vienna...)

However, I didn't comprehend this statement
"http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/re...a89/at4054.pdf
10db less sensitive, completely different response? Notice both responses' are at 12" or greater. (...add a sh*t load of low end at a half inch."

And this is due to my own lack of knowledge- were you saying this *is* a good mic for live vocals or is the case in point against it?
(I'm reading Harvey's 84 page pdf but it's slow going...)

Thanks to all of you for your comments- they really help in my education!!
Click to expand...

The low end being referred to is called proximity effect. In any directional mic (all the ones we are talking about here), when you get real close to it, the bass is enhanced. This is a tool used by singers, standup commedians, radio people, beat boxers, and rappers. How close you have to be, how abrupt or gradual the boost is, and how much of it there is, is a lot of what makes one vocal mic different than another. It's part of what I don't like about beta87. The proximity effect is like a wall when you hit it. I want to be able to flirt with the proximity field, moving in and out of the edges of it. You can't flirt with a brick wall. The 10db of output is not that critical. If a mic is less sensitive, you have to crank the PA a little more. What's more important is gain before feedback.

And as far as what I don't like the Beta87, I don't like it for the same reason that you don't like the SM58. It's a shoe that doesn't fit my foot. I wouldn't be surprised if our voices have some similarities, because the SM58 does the same thing to me that it does to you. I also sometimes use Sennheiser e835 as an alternative. Mostly, I use Shure SM7b on stage, the big honking radio mic. I play guitar, so I don't need a hand held mic. I think you'll find the AKG C535 will work great for you. I learned about it from David Wilcox. It's his go-to stage mic. Down the road, an SM7b is a must-have mic. It might or might not work for you on stage, but it's just so good for recording so many things. It is also a very good stage mic. Resistant to feedback, great on a ton of stuff, especially brass/sax. The only problems with it are its size, which can make it a drumstick target, and its low output, which means you need a PA or mic preamp you can really crank without a lot of noise. I use it as my main stage mic, but I have a higher, thinner voice, not a "beautiful" voice. Like I said, I think the 535 will work very well for you. I've never heard that new mic by B.L.U.E., but I would love to. I use B.L.U.E. mics in the studio all the time. The KIWI is my main studio vocal mic.-Richie
 
mixsit said:
Overheads, guitar cabs, lots of places on the backline LDC's, SDC's, ribbons, sure the lines blur.
But OP said 'live vocal. How many of those studio favs are set up level wise and voiced to work a half inch off the diaphragm?
Click to expand...

thank you, I'm happy that some other people read the OP's post too and are focusing on the topic in question :-)
 
dintymoore said:
Just for laughs, one time I took a Neumann KM84 to a restaurant gig I was doing. It was crazy - it picked up EVERYTHING,

if you scratched your balls it would have come through the pa loud and clear.
Click to expand...

Man, I hate it when everyone knows I'm scratching my balls live on stage because they can hear it ;-)
 
I've always been a huge guy for the 535eb. I use it in the studio and for those rare live gigs I mic up. They're INCREDIBLE mics. I actually use them as one of my preferred studio SDC mics in general because they're soooooooooooo smoooooooooooooooth. In classical sources they're one of the best mics there is, at any price.

I like them better on more things than some other people do though. :-)

certainly they're designed for female vocals live and in the studio, so they're kind of the ideal mic for your needs.

km104 is amazing but VERY Pricey, you don't really need one for this project I suspect. They've used them on American Idol before, to give you a famous example of the budget needed for a mic like that.
 
Richard Monroe said:
The low end being referred to is called proximity effect. In any directional mic (all the ones we are talking about here), when you get real close to it, the bass is enhanced. This is a tool used by singers, standup commedians, radio people, beat boxers, and rappers. How close you have to be, how abrupt or gradual the boost is, and how much of it there is, is a lot of what makes one vocal mic different than another. It's part of what I don't like about beta87. The proximity effect is like a wall when you hit it. I want to be able to flirt with the proximity field, moving in and out of the edges of it. You can't flirt with a brick wall. The 10db of output is not that critical. If a mic is less sensitive, you have to crank the PA a little more. What's more important is gain before feedback.
Click to expand...
Just to add, the other points are that if you consider the differences in the 4050/4054 example, the low tilt down on the stage ver compensates for the expected close working distance, as does the sensitivity. Whether you'd overload electrically on a 4050 at a half from the cap with the pad on, likely not. But I feel 'close working distance to the capsule is a very large part of feed back resistance. Now you still have a flat(er') mic with a ton of bass and not enough breath filter.
I got to try a 4047 on 'close male vocal with the pad on and a pop filter in a rehearsal situation not to long ago (these opportunities are great learning times. :) This was Heil PR35, 22, RE20, 4047, not terribly loud but electric with drums and a nice fairly neutral sounding EV ZX-1 for monitor.) With the low filter on the 47 was a very decent sound. But even in this fairly controlled environment and me able to tailor each mic with the board eq the Heil won out. I remember the singer saying at the time something along the lines of the AT was nice -but hard to hear'.
Lately I'm having fun with the RE16 on my vocal. Big up side is no proximity. I really enjoy being able to go low, or close, without the low muddying up/tone change thing.
Downside caution though-- Whenever you stray from the tonal' norm in a live setting be prepared to possibly deal with additional set-up and balance time to get it 'to fit.
 
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