Pre-amp advice please

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tigerflystudio

tigerflystudio

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Hi guys,
I've been thinking of getting a pre-amp for a while now - mainly for to boost the quality and level of my signals (for my acoustic gtr, and maybe vocals. I don't really want to spend a huge wedge, so just wondered if you folks thought a pre-amp would be a good idea, and if so, what decent bits of kit are out there. Go for Tubes? No tubes? Any brands / models to steer clear of? Behringer Ok?
 
tigerflystudio said:
Hi guys,
I've been thinking of getting a pre-amp for a while now - mainly for to boost the quality and level of my signals (for my acoustic gtr, and maybe vocals. I don't really want to spend a huge wedge, so just wondered if you folks thought a pre-amp would be a good idea, and if so, what decent bits of kit are out there. Go for Tubes? No tubes? Any brands / models to steer clear of? Behringer Ok?
Click to expand...

You're asking an open ended question. Answer(s) will depends on several things but first, what's your budget? I could suggest a vintage Telefunken V78 (since everything sounds good going through that) but a single channel can run you about $3K (if you actually find one)

One other question is what are you currently using?
 
I'm not using anything for acoustic and vocals (yet). My budget = cheap as possible (so long as it works). Just need a single channel.
 
tigerflystudio said:
I'm not using anything for acoustic and vocals (yet). My budget = cheap as possible (so long as it works). Just need a single channel.
Click to expand...
If you don't have a few hundred to spend (new, not counting eBay pricing), you're probably not going to get a whole lot better than whatever you're using now, unless you're plugging directly into a PC soundcard, in which case just about anything would be better.

For a preamp that actually is going to sound better than your average inexpensive interface or small mixer preamp, take a look at the GT Brick, Summit 2BA-221, True P-Solo, or UA 610.

G.
 
Okay, I've got a question about the importance of preamps generally.

First, I'd prioritize stuff this way, in order of importance:

mic

room

preamp

soundcard

Any differences of opinion about that? But it also seems to me that mic and room are way, w-a-y, WAY more important than preamp. Opinions?
 
dobro said:
Okay, I've got a question about the importance of preamps generally.

First, I'd prioritize stuff this way, in order of importance:

mic

room

preamp

soundcard

Any differences of opinion about that?
Click to expand...

It's sort of a loaded question although I would add the most important thing is what's in front of the mic. After that it's a bit of a toss up. You can record just about anything with a mic like the 57 or 58, but if you are using a pre with a high noise floor it will not sound as good as a pre that is designed for quality.

After that, mic placement, room ambience, and converters come in to play. So I guess a chain is only as strong as the weakest link with all components being equally important.
 
Yeah, I agree with the bit about what's in front of the mic. But aside from that...
 
Its a chain - only as strong as its weakest link. But If I had to pick one, it would be converters, or at the very least, the clock.
 
These days mic preamps are dead cheap to manufacture. The pre is unllikely to be the weak link in your chain. What are you using now? What do you find inadequate about it?
 
If you don't have a few hundred to spend (new, not counting eBay pricing), you're probably not going to get a whole lot better than whatever you're using now, unless you're plugging directly into a PC soundcard, in which case just about anything would be better.



G.
Click to expand...

What he said! :)
 
dobro said:
Yeah, I agree with the bit about what's in front of the mic. But aside from that...
Click to expand...
I'd more or less agree with your list - though I'd probably usually put "room" before "mic". Even a great mic in a lousy-sounding room is going to record a lousy-sounding room. OTOH, a chapo mic in a good room will still be recording a good room, even if not as well.

But it's not quite so simple in many specific cases, especially with the preamp. How important the preamp is depends greatly upon the mic selection. With a typical ribbon or LDD (e.g. SM7 or RE10), a preamp that won't provide a good 65-70dB of clean gain will definitely and significantly weaken the chain.

Also, with some more "critical" mics - e.g. higher quality mics, mics placed on acoustic instruments, or both - the preamp design can indeed affect the resulting sound in a noticeable way. The amp design itself, the input impedance characteristics and how they match (or not) with the mic's performance character, and even the quality of input trim pot itself can quite noticeably affect the resulting recorded sound.

Yes it's easy and cheap to make a passable preamp these days, but there's still an art and science to building different ones with characteristics that make the mic sound like the strong link in the chain vs. ones that make the preamp sound like the weak link in the chain.

G.
 
Yeah, I thought someone would put 'room' ahead of 'mic' in that list. Fair enough.

Thanks for the other comments, though. I've been really dubious about the importance of preamps generally, but your comments (and the one by Waltz M about noise floor) have cleared some stuff up for me. You know, years ago when I was just getting into this I sent $25 off to Lynn Fuston who organized a 'Preamp Shootout' with a great big variety of pres in a double blind situation with people who have/had good ears. For $25 I got a CD of the recordings of the different pres which I could listen to blind, and then a set of notes that revealed what I'd been listening to. I really, really, REALLY couldn't hear much difference between any of them on the system I played the CD on, and the conclusion I drew was that either I had lousy ears or the pre doesn't begin to make as much difference as the other links in the chain. (By contrast, I could hear immediate and dramatic differences in sound depending on what mic I used and how I used it.) But this thread has convinced me that the pre *does* make a difference. I think what I should do is simply pony up and buy a good pre (for me, a good pre would be something like the Brick you mentioned in a previous post) and put it to the test.
 
dobro said:
Yeah, I thought someone would put 'room' ahead of 'mic' in that list. Fair enough.

Thanks for the other comments, though. I've been really dubious about the importance of preamps generally, but your comments (and the one by Waltz M about noise floor) have cleared some stuff up for me. You know, years ago when I was just getting into this I sent $25 off to Lynn Fuston who organized a 'Preamp Shootout' with a great big variety of pres in a double blind situation with people who have/had good ears. For $25 I got a CD of the recordings of the different pres which I could listen to blind, and then a set of notes that revealed what I'd been listening to. I really, really, REALLY couldn't hear much difference between any of them on the system I played the CD on, and the conclusion I drew was that either I had lousy ears or the pre doesn't begin to make as much difference as the other links in the chain. (By contrast, I could hear immediate and dramatic differences in sound depending on what mic I used and how I used it.) But this thread has convinced me that the pre *does* make a difference. I think what I should do is simply pony up and buy a good pre (for me, a good pre would be something like the Brick you mentioned in a previous post) and put it to the test.
Click to expand...

I will say, for the 1000000 time. that you could take any of 100 pre-amps high or low end and many of them will sound the same on a single track of a recording. It is when you stack up many tracks that the low end pre-amps show how worthless they really are. What stacks up is the artifacts that the pre-amp has. This shows up as either muddy, tinney or mid-rangey mixes as well as tracks that don't sit well in the mix.
 
tigerflystudio said:
Thanks so far...
anyone tried the Tube MP Studio V3?
Most of what's been suggested so far has been way out of my price range.
Click to expand...

I figured as much from your first post. I'm in the same boat...most of this recording gear the guys on here suggest is beyond the means of your regular Joe. (even if it was, it would be hard to get passed the wife!)
So my advise will prove to be most useful to you, being that I have a "real world" view of things. (real world = real poor) ;)

I was dissatisfied with my results, using the usual stage mics (SM57/58, E-V, AKG, etc) and an M-Audio Black Box as my digital interface. (I also have an M-Audio 24/96 Audiophile soundcard)
My instruments sounded fine (the Black Box does a great job for the $$$), but any time I tried to mic something (esp. vocals) it would fall short. Even adding the VST plugin "Vocal Magic 5" didn't bring the desired result.

Aside from "deadening" the room you record in, a good dedicated studio mic (as much $$ as you can afford) and a simple preamp w/compression will work wonders. (get one with a digital output if you can afford it)
I'm gonna assume you have a decent interface, whatever it is.

I bought a Blue Bluebird mic on Ebay. My winning bid was $200. (Retail $299)
It sounds great with much detail and high end. (albeit the shockmount is mediocre) Worth every penny! But I wouldn't say it's perfect for every application.
For vocals, You'd be hard pressed to find better for the money.

The preamp thing is trickier.
Those ART units sound great in text:

"...made pro-caliber tube preamping available to ordinary musicians and home studios"
(no doubt making ordinary recordings)
"Provides Superior Preamplification for: Microphones, Instruments and Line Level Sources"
(superior to what? Avalon? Neve? AU?) :rolleyes:
"Hand-Selected 12AX7A Vacuum Tube"
(Probably still has the oil on it from the dirty fingers that selected it) ...{out of a box containing ten thousand 12AX7s, bought in a lot from Shady Bonsai Distributing Inc.}
"Built-in Brickwall Limiting"
(well, if that doesn't tell ya something about it's limitations....)

The cheaper units will give you some of the basic necessities you need for recording with a mic, but the quality is usually below average. Poor quality control make individual units vary greatly in performance and some units can be quite noisy.
But it's all relative. This goes for several of the cheaper units. Mass production leaves lots of room for error and cheaper companies cut corners when they can.
I know someone that bought this unit:
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...nel-Variable-Impedance-Tube-Preamp?sku=180632
They figured it would be better than the $29 unit, but it added just as much noise as the $29 unit. (maybe more!)

After much research, I purchased the Focusrite Trakmaster Pro. ($125 on Ebay..retail $339) and bought the optional ADC card ($225) to give it a digital output.
That gave me a relatively quiet preamp with a decent (albeit limited) compressor that has a digital out. ($375 total cost)
Is it as good as an Avalon? I'll probably never know....but I doubt it is...and it probably won't ever be an issue with me. But then, I'm not a pro studio, I'm just a guy...like you.

I also have to add, a pop filter is another must for recording good vocal tracks. If you're tight for cash, get an old pair of pantyhose, stretch them through your mom's embroidery hoop and tape it to the mic. (just make sure not to use the crotch area) :D ...unless you like that sort of thing :eek: !

I bought this instead:
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Raxxess-Pop-Filter-Kit?sku=421640
Smells much nicer. :o
 
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dobro said:
But this thread has convinced me that the pre *does* make a difference.
Click to expand...
In the interest of not wanting to accidentally mislead you on my personal opinion, I'd (IMHO) say that the pre *can* make a difference, but unlike the typical mic change-out, won't necessarily *always* make a difference.

There are practical specifics like I and Tom mentioned earlier, and there can also be instances where just having some variety can help the mix. Just like if you record everything with one type of mic only, there can sometimes be a tendency for the mic's "personality" in the sound to build up as you add the tracks together - and not always one that you like or want - something similar can sometimes happen with preamps.

Sometimes just having a different pre for (just for example) vocals can help the vocals stand up against the backing instruments recorded on another set of pres with different character.

Then there's the whole idea of matching pres with mics. Some mic/pre combinations will sound better or worse than others. I cane across this most recently even with some entry-level pres (Mackie mixer vs Tascam interface). With SM58s they were virtually indistinguishable - or at least not different enough easily notice, but with some SDCs (specifically, a RODE NT4), the difference was night and day, with (in this case) the Mackie pres sounding like they had thick wool covers pulled over them compared to the far more transparent-sounding Tascams.

But in general, other than those kind of specifics, I think maybe the best way I can generalize my experience with pres is that they won't necessarily make a dubious signal chain sound all that much better, but they can hold back the quality of a decent signal chain. In the example above, I don't believe the Tascams made the NT4 sound better so much as the Mackies were holding back the true sound of the NT4; you could even *see* when comparing the waveforms recorded off the two that the NT4/Tascam track "looked" like a real piano waveform, whereas the NT4/Mackie waveform just plain looked sickly.

IMHO, YMMV, OSHA, Mayberrry RFD, ZIP + 4, etc.

G.
 
tigerflystudio said:
Hi guys,
I've been thinking of getting a pre-amp for a while now - mainly for to boost the quality and level of my signals
Click to expand...

tigerflystudio said:
Thanks so far...
anyone tried the Tube MP Studio V3?
http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/art-tube-mp-studio-v3-microphone-instrument-preamp--61010

Most of what's been suggested so far had been way out of my price range.
Click to expand...
I have to ask again; What are you using now, Tiger? You may not realize it, but you already are using a preamp somewhere along the line. If you weren't, your mic levels would be really messed up. Please explain your current signal chain, from mic selection to interface type.

This is important because it does have a bearing on the answer. If you are somehow limping by on running a mic through your PC soundcard or a basement-level mixer, then an inexpensive external pre like the Tubb MP would probably be an improvement. Of course if you're trying to plug a condenser into your PC with no phantom power, then *anythig* with phantom power would be a huge improvement.

If, however, you're using an interface of some type, that'll already have preamp in it of similar quality to the sub-$100 stuff you're looking at, and spending the money on that kind of stuff is going to be a dubious investment at best, and the only real way to ensure that you go up in quality from there would be to spend a few hundred bucks for the next level of quality. If you can't afford that (which is understandable), then I'd either look elsewhere for your next improvement, or start saving pennies for a while.

G.
 
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