Chipped My Nut!

[Victory Pete]

Whatever floats yer boat. I think I know where you can find some 60 million year old tyrannosaurus teeth. Making bridge pins out of them would make your guitar sound ferocious, I betcha.

Yes it does float my boat, also some of my customers have thier boats float also. I cant understand why some people have to insist I am imagining all these improvements. Is it so hard to believe it actually may be real?
VP

 

[muttley600]

Yes it does float my boat, also some of my customers have thier boats float also. I cant understand why some people have to insist I am imagining all these improvements. Is it so hard to believe it actually may be real?
VP

VP, The reason many people don't take it to be "real" is that it flies in the face of logic, common sense, our own observations, basic physics, material science and known musical acoustic. Other than that you very well may be correct and the vast majority of the rest of us, knowledgeable or otherwise, may be completely wrong.

You may be able to get away with convincing your "customers" of your opinions and observations but you will not get away with it here without backing up your claims. But that has been said to you on many many occasions here.

Good luck.

 

[ggunn]

Yes it does float my boat, also some of my customers have thier boats float also. I cant understand why some people have to insist I am imagining all these improvements. Is it so hard to believe it actually may be real?
VP

Hearing is subjective, and if you can convince someone that there should be a difference in a sound, they will nearly always hear it whether it's there or not. It's hard for me to believe that changing the nut material would make the kind of difference you claim it does because it doesn't make much sense to me that it would, but I am NOT saying that I know for a fact that it's not real. To say that you (or anyone else) can hear the difference, however, is not proof of anything. I remain skeptical.

 

[Victory Pete]

Hearing is subjective, and if you can convince someone that there should be a difference in a sound, they will nearly always hear it whether it's there or not. It's hard for me to believe that changing the nut material would make the kind of difference you claim it does because it doesn't make much sense to me that it would, but I am NOT saying that I know for a fact that it's not real. To say that you (or anyone else) can hear the difference, however, is not proof of anything. I remain skeptical.

Okay, thanks I respect your opinion
VP

 

[Victory Pete]

VP, The reason many people don't take it to be "real" is that it flies in the face of logic, common sense, our own observations, basic physics, material science and known musical acoustic. Other than that you very well may be correct and the vast majority of the rest of us, knowledgeable or otherwise, may be completely wrong.

You may be able to get away with convincing your "customers" of your opinions and observations but you will not get away with it here without backing up your claims. But that has been said to you on many many occasions here.

Good luck.

Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate not being insulted anymore.
I am not sure the vast majority disagrees with my findings.
VP

 

[Lt. Bob]

Hearing is subjective, and if you can convince someone that there should be a difference in a sound, they will nearly always hear it whether it's there or not. It's hard for me to believe that changing the nut material would make the kind of difference you claim it does because it doesn't make much sense to me that it would, but I am NOT saying that I know for a fact that it's not real. To say that you (or anyone else) can hear the difference, however, is not proof of anything. I remain skeptical.

and ditto.

I have around 40 years of working on guitars under my belt, both building them and repairing/servicing them.
I've seen the phenomena of hearing what you expect to hear many, many times and it's an absolute fact that when you're talking about subtle differences in sound, people can and do hear things that aren't there because of what they expect to hear.

And once someone feels like they've heard something, there's no way you can convince them otherwise.

As a piano tech, I see people make erroneous decisions about how their pianos sound and what made them sound that way all the time so I'm not gonna try and convince you since I don't really care what you do one way or the other.
But my ears are as good as anyone's and better than most; and I've personally done some of the changes we're talking about and I heard no substantial difference.
Plus ........ basic physics rears its head again.
Instruments aren't some metaphysical thing where you can create results contrary to physics.

But since hearing is mostly in your mind, you can create illusions of sounds without the differences really being there.

I would ONLY accept such results if they were proven in a double-blind test.

 

[Lt. Bob]

*stupid can't delete double post*

 

[Victory Pete]

I came home from work the other day and my wife tells me our ten month old baby knocked my electric guitar over. I don't have a real case for it yet so it's still being stored in the box it came in (bad move I know). I opened it up and looked at it real quick but everything seemed fine. Today I sit down to play and hmmm...the low e string won't stay in tune and...holy crap there's a huge chip missing from the nut! The whole chunk where the low e sits is gone so basically only the tension is keeping the string from slipping off the fretboard. Do I need to replace the whole nut? I would assume so since I don't think glue will do the trick. Any idea how much it might cost? It's an Epiphone SG and the nut is plastic.

That lil' stinker.

I hope you will resolve your problem nut soon. I hope the others and I have helped in some way. I apologize if some of my posts have caused too much controversy. Good luck with your precious "babies"
VP

 

[Victory Pete]

and ditto.

I have around 40 years of working on guitars under my belt, both building them and repairing/servicing them.
I've seen the phenomena of hearing what you expect to hear many, many times and it's an absolute fact that when you're talking about subtle differences in sound, people can and do hear things that aren't there.

And once someone feels like they've heard something, there's no way you can convince them otherwise.

As a piano tech, I see people make erroneous decisions about how their pianos sound and what made them sound that way all the time so I'm not gonna try and convince you since I don't really care what you do one way or the other.
But my ears are as good as anyone's and better than most; and I've personally done some of the changes we're talking about and I heard no substantial difference.
Plus ........ basic physics rears its head again.
Instruments aren't some metaphysical thing where you can create results contrary to physics.

But since hearing is mostly in your mind, you can create illusions of sounds without the differences really being there.

I would ONLY accept such results if they were proven in a double-blind test.

Lastly ...... you keep saying things like "your guitars sound amazing" ........ they don't. At most they sound very good.
Amazing implies that they sound unusually good ....... better than any others sound ....... so good that you're amazed because you've never heard anything like it before ...... that sort of thing.
We've ALL heard guitars that sound at least as good as yours ....... amazing is a hyperbolic word used like a press release. At most you're hearing a difference ........ most of us don't think there is a difference at all but even if there is ..... it's small and there's simply no possible way that changing the nut and saddle and pins took your gits to an amazing level.

You'd probably get more interested reactions to your ideas if you weren't so over-the-top in all your descriptions of the results.

No, The difference between my factory HD-28 and the way it sounds now is amazing! You can not take that away from me. Your last paragraph is out of line.
VP

 

[miroslav]

As an aside to the ongoing debates...

I had one nut that chipped at the low E...the slot was still there, but the end of the nut was chipped off after the slot.

I considered just replacing the whole nut...but I figured I could do that anyway, so instead I first decided to repair the chip buy recreating the missing piece with some epoxy…especially since this was a vintage guitar and I preferred not to replace the nut if possible.

It's not a 1-2-3 process...and can be messy if you are not careful...
But I first created a small "dam" with tape strips around the missing area. Then added the epoxy and waited for it cure. After that I filed and shaped it and finally used some white porcelain repair "stuff" to make it white like the rest of the nut.

Worked out well...

 

[RandyW]

Thanks for all the advice guys. Using bone sounds like the way to go. Looks like I'm finally gonna have to find a good repair shop around here. I have an acoustic with terrible action as well that could use some professional adjusting. Unfortunately I'm piss broke right now and with Christmas and my kid's birthday coming up...crap.

Looks like I'll have to whip out my old Yamaha keyboard to keep me occupied. Yay.

I would consider just paying $10 or so for a precut, presloted graphtech nut.
Tap the old one out with a punch and a light tap. If your really lucky it might
be a decent fit and not require and any modifications. Worst case scenario is
you wasted $10. I would not hesitate to use their nuts on an electric guitar.
I think it would be a definite upgrade compared to the plastic original.
And just for the record I've used their products on more than one strat
or tele without having to breakout a file.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Your last paragraph is out of line.
VP

If that's a joke then put a smiley on it.

If you were serious, then there was nothing even a little bit out of line with that remark.
I simply said that you describe results of things you do as being amazing or astounding and so on.
Those are over the top descriptions of sound in the first place ..... secondly, I know enough about gits to be absolutely positive that a bone nut and a change in pins isn't going to make a dramatic change in the sound. It MAY make some difference (and I'm only saying that because anything's possible) but it's not gonna be the huge change that you allude to.

Last time we tried to tell you something, you ended up with egg on your face. Try being a bit more open to the possibility that you don't know everything there is to know about gits and you might actually still have stuff to learn and POSSIBLY, some people here might know as much as you do about the subject and have as much and even more experience with it.

Now I'm done with you.
You say some ludicrous stuff man ........ and you don't want to listen ...... you only want to talk.
BBS's are a two way communication ..... not simply a place for you to speak and have everyone gather round in rapt attention to you.
Try listening at least half as much as you talk..

 

[Milnoque]

As an aside to the ongoing debates...

I had one nut that chipped at the low E...the slot was still there, but the end of the nut was chipped off after the slot.

I considered just replacing the whole nut...but I figured I could do that anyway, so instead I first decided to repair the chip buy recreating the missing piece with some epoxy…especially since this was a vintage guitar and I preferred not to replace the nut if possible.

It's not a 1-2-3 process...and can be messy if you are not careful...
But I first created a small "dam" with tape strips around the missing area. Then added the epoxy and waited for it cure. After that I filed and shaped it and finally used some white porcelain repair "stuff" to make it white like the rest of the nut.

Worked out well...

I'm happy you are pleased with the results you got but I would not recommend anyone use this method. The epoxy you used will make it more difficult to repair properly at a later time.

The replacement of a broken or worn out nut does no harm to the value of a vintage instrument.

 

[Victory Pete]

If that's a joke then put a smiley on it.

If you were serious, then there was nothing even a little bit out of line with that remark.
I simply said that you describe results of things you do as being amazing or astounding and so on.
Those are over the top descriptions of sound in the first place ..... secondly, I know enough about gits to be absolutely positive that a bone nut and a change in pins isn't going to make a dramatic change in the sound. It MAY make some difference (and I'm only saying that because anything's possible) but it's not gonna be the huge change that you allude to.

Last time we tried to tell you something, you ended up with egg on your face. Try being a bit more open to the possibility that you don't know everything there is to know about gits and you might actually still have stuff to learn and POSSIBLY, some people here might know as much as you do about the subject and have as much and even more experience with it.

Now I'm done with you.
You say some ludicrous stuff man ........ and you don't want to listen ...... you only want to talk.
BBS's are a two way communication ..... not simply a place for you to speak and have everyone gather round in rapt attention to you.
Try listening at least half as much as you talk..

I admitted "egg on face" only because my experiment was inconclusive for the strings I was testing, the string may not have been old and tarnished enough. I do have an open mind and will consider everything. Even if my improvements are of small significance to you, to me it is amazing! Every little bit of tone or volume I can get out of my instruments is quite significant to my enjoyment and creativity. I have learned a great deal from this forum, usually from the humble, open minded, common sense individual. Not neccassarilly from the self appointed know-it-alls.
VP

 

[miroslav]

The epoxy you used will make it more difficult to repair properly at a later time.

How do you mean that?

Maybe I wasn't clear...the epoxy is ONLY on the top of the nut...the portion that chipped off.
I didn't epoxy the entire nut in place.
If I need to remove that nut for full replacement...it will come out just like any other nut.
Like I said...it took a bit of effort, but much less time than it would have taken to remove the nut, cut a new one, and then slot it properly.
If the chip was big enough to affect the string placement...then I would have replaced it...but it was just the very corner/end, and while it didn't impact the string so much....it looked like a broken tooth!

Speaking of nuts…has anyone here tried out any of the Earvana nuts meant to compensate for tuning/bridge deficiencies?

I would like to try one…but preferably one of the OEM types that completely replaces the existing nut…rather than their retro-fit version that has screws and whatnot. It is supposed to remove a lot of the tuning anomalies on most guitars.

 

[muttley600]

Speaking of nuts…has anyone here tried out any of the Earvana nuts meant to compensate for tuning/bridge deficiencies?

Don't bother. It is pretty much impossible to achieve what they claim and you are far better off with a good setup.

 

[miroslav]

Thanks for affirming what I kinda suspected.
I talked to the inventor on the phone one time...and when I started to ask him questions...like how is the nut any different from what you can do at the bridge with the saddles...
..he didn't give me a real clear answer, other than to say it improves the tuning at the first position for mixed open/fretted playing.



To which I responded that basically it wouldn't do much for the rest of the neck...and he only said "well it helps a little".
So I wasn't quite warm and fuzzy about droping $35 for one of those nuts and installing it...only to find it didn't do all that much for the whole neck.
I'm not much of a 1st position open/fretted string player...and I've learned how to deal with that area.
I was just curious if anyone here took a close look at those Earvana nuts or tried one out.

 

[muttley600]

Thanks for affirming what I kinda suspected.
I talked to the inventor on the phone one time...and when I started to ask him questions...like how is the nut any different from what you can do at the bridge with the saddles...
..he didn't give me a real clear answer, other than to say it improves the tuning at the first position for mixed open/fretted playing.



To which I responded that basically it wouldn't do much for the rest of the neck...and he only said "well it helps a little".
So I wasn't quite warm and fuzzy about droping $35 for one of those nuts and installing it...only to find it didn't do all that much for the whole neck.
I'm not much of a 1st position open/fretted string player...and I've learned how to deal with that area.
I was just curious if anyone here took a close look at those Earvana nuts or tried one out.

I'm not surprised he wouldn't commit to backing up any claims. Frankly those sorts of things annoy me because it just sucks money out of inexperienced or new players who don't know any better. It's a solution to a problem that cannot be solved. Well done for having the sense to realise that.

I don't know your level of understanding but you may be interested to read the tuning and temperament primer I wrote thats stickied at the top of this page. It will explain why that is.

 

[miroslav]

I did read through your primer awhile back...though I see you revised it...so I will read it again.

The only question I had was about choosing to tune strings open rather than fretted.
As someone who doesn't often play up in the open string zone, and who tends to play mostly full Barre chords...though I do play open strings too, it’s just that the majority of my playing is done fretting the strings....

...I never understood why tuning the strings open was the way to go, though that's how I also learned when I was young.

See...unless you have very low action...when you fret, you stretch the string with makes it a bit sharp relative to the open string...right?
So my logic tell me to tune my strings fretted.
I thought about it for awhile...where would it be best to fret them...towards the nut...at the 12th...etc....and I decided that the 8th fret was the best tradeoff, as that's usually where neck relief is centered for a typical electric guitar neck.

Maybe some of that logic is flawed...but my guitars sound fine and in-tune...other than the never-ending issue with the forever troublesome G-string.

Your thoughts/suggestions?


PS
I usually just use a Peterson VSAM when I tune that way...though I tune to ET rather than using thier offset presets for guitar.

 

[muttley600]

It sounds as if you have it covered for your style and requirement. If the way you tune works for you and gives acceptable intonation that's the battle won.

The tuning method described in the primer is kind of doing exactly what you describe.

See...unless you have very low action...when you fret, you stretch the string with makes it a bit sharp relative to the open string...right?

Yes correct. Thats why you see compensated saddles on guitars and why the off set is greater with heavier strings.

Ultimately the aim is to make the best of a compromised system and the two most important considerations are. Does it sound in tune to you and does it play in tune with others. Get that much and you are good to go.

Those compensated nuts are not going to help you at all. A good setup and technique will.