HELP - Precision Bass has developed a warped neck

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Victory Pete said:
Thanks for your reply, I never said the neck would bow from storage. I just suggested that strings increase in tension with time. That tension doesnt mean it will bow the neck. Is it agreed strings increase in tension from playing? Is it accepted that old played strings are harder to play and stiffer(more tension)? I wondered if strings kept under tension become stiffer and tighter with time even if they arent played. I have repeatedly have had to loosen my strings on many guitars that were in thier case or hanging on the wall. I am going to start an experiment. I will take an E string, Martin 056 and hang it with a certain amount of weight, 10lbs. I will then see what pitch it is with an acoustic pickup and an Oscilloscope. I will then monitor the pitch and see if it in fact increases with time.
VP
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No it not agreed. I have constantly asked you to provide the science behind this claim that refutes the science I posted. This is a case in point and demonstrates exactly how much you don't know about the subject and how much you need to learn. There is no point having an opinion about something when simple physics says other wise. I shall repeat for the benefit of the group.

Strings and their pitch are dependant on three properties. Their mass per unit length, the tension, and the string length. Exactly which one of these properties changes?

Are you suggesting that strings tuned up to pitch work harden to such an extent that the elasticity changes continually? Show me the figures? Show me the research, show me the papers. Show me anything to back up what you claim.
 
Lt. Bob said:
strings don't tightern with time.
In general strings will drop in pitch with time if they do anything because ANYTHING that is under tension 'wants' to go to a lighter tension.
I'm a piano rebuilder/technician and pianos that are not tuned ALWAYS go down in pitch ..... always.
If strings tightened over time that wouldn't be the case.
As for humidity ...... I suppose it can affect a neck but not to the point of making the strings go higher in pitch plus you can't be sure which way humidity might make a neck move. It's certainly not a case of "humid is straight and dry is bowed".
You have a different opinion of course and I doubt you're open to changing your mind but I really don't agree with what you're saying on this subject and I do have a 40 year background in working on gits and pianos.
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Thanks for a civil response, Basically I find a neck will bow from dry air because the neck's wood now has shrunk. The truss rod has stayed the same length, therefore there is less tension on the truss rod, less tension so the strings will pull the neck foward. With high humidity the neck's wood lengthens but the truss rod stays the same length. There is now more tension on the truss road so the neck back bows. It is simmiliar to how a bimetalic strip bends back and forth, except that it is due to temperature only.
VP
 
Lt. Bob said:
no it's not agreed.
Strings that are played a lot generally go down in pitch.
And old played strings do not get stiffer .... they just don't.
And if the pitch is the same, then it's not possible for a string to be stiffer. That's strictly a matter of physics ... a certain mass string at a certain pitch HAS to be at a certain tension.
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Thanks for that Bob, we've been over this before with him. He just simply refuses to get it. Maybe know it's not just me throwing the science book at him he may go away and do some research on this before he gives everyone the benifit.;)
 
Victory Pete said:
Thanks for a civil response, Basically I find a neck will bow from dry air because the neck's wood now has shrunk. The truss rod has stayed the same length, therefore there is less tension on the truss rod, less tension so the strings will pull the neck foward. With high humidity the neck's wood lengthens but the truss rod stays the same length. There is now more tension on the truss road so the neck back bows. It is simmiliar to how a bimetalic strip bends back and forth, except that it is due to temperature only.
VP
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Fer fecks sake. Apart from the fact that that just isn't the case how the hell does it explain this.

I just suggested that strings increase in tension with time.
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or this

That tension doesnt mean it will bow the neck
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or this

old played strings are harder to play and stiffer(more tension)
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I could go on but you are doing a perfect job of p3ng yourself I shall leave you to it on these points.
 
Lt. Bob said:
there is absolutely no way that, under the described situation, that string will tighten over time.
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I didnt say tighten, of course it wouldnt, 10 lbs is 10 lbs. It is the frequency I propose may rise.
VP
 
Victory Pete said:
I usually express my views and opinions to be my own experiences and observations. I am sure at some point I make it sound like proven scientific fact. But arent the others to do the same? I am all for having discussions but I have been attacked and insulted by the same group. Most of them have no useable input at all they are just the instigators. Thanks for your advice.
VP
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Here's some "proven scientific fact" now answer it with your observations and fucking experience.

muttley600 said:
Strings and their pitch are dependant on three properties. Their mass per unit length, the tension, and the string length. Exactly which one of these properties changes?
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Oh I remember you won't respond to me because I'm an ignorant moron.:rolleyes:
 
Victory Pete said:
Thanks for your reply, I never said the neck would bow from storage. I just suggested that strings increase in tension with time. That tension doesnt mean it will bow the neck. Is it agreed strings increase in tension from playing? Is it accepted that old played strings are harder to play and stiffer(more tension)? I wondered if strings kept under tension become stiffer and tighter with time even if they arent played. I have repeatedly have had to loosen my strings on many guitars that were in thier case or hanging on the wall. I am going to start an experiment. I will take an E string, Martin 056 and hang it with a certain amount of weight, 10lbs. I will then see what pitch it is with an acoustic pickup and an Oscilloscope. I will then monitor the pitch and see if it in fact increases with time.
VP
Click to expand...

are you telling me that there is a metal that NATURALLY shrinks over time?
 
Victory Pete said:
Thanks for a civil response, Basically I find a neck will bow from dry air because the neck's wood now has shrunk. The truss rod has stayed the same length, therefore there is less tension on the truss rod, less tension so the strings will pull the neck foward. With high humidity the neck's wood lengthens but the truss rod stays the same length. There is now more tension on the truss road so the neck back bows. It is simmiliar to how a bimetalic strip bends back and forth, except that it is due to temperature only.
VP
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I have no reason to be uncivil.
And I understand your bimetal example but I'll just say I don't agree with you.
Here's why:
first ..... any changes in the size of the wood in the neck from humidity would be across the grain rather than lengthwise because any change is due to the grain and plant cells absorbing water which would make the grain fatter and the change in size would be at a 90 degree angle from the grain direction .... not lengthwise as you feel.
Not only that, but if humidity changes the length of the neck and thus, the straightness of it, then guitar necks would constantly change all the time as humidity changed from day to day. Since I've had hundreds of guitars and rarely have to adjust the truss rod at all once it's right .... that doesn't jive with the fact that in Louisiana the humidity would go from low to super high all the time. I have 35 year old guitars that have never required a truss rod adjustment and they've certainly seen humidity extremes.
And now I live in Fla. which is probably worse in terms of changing humidity.

I will say that I see why you might think the things you do and some of it seems logical on intial examination. And far be it from me to set myself up as the arbiter of guitar knowledge.
But one thing I'm just positive about ..... a string with a weight on it can hang until the end of time and it will only get longer if anything.
 
Kingofpain678 said:
are you telling me that there is a metal that NATURALLY shrinks over time?
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No, I have stated that I find my strings increase in stiffness and tension with time. It may be at the molecular level. Just a thought.
VP
 
I am going to now cut off the E string that has been on my HD-28 for 13 months and hang it with a weight. I will see what frequency it is. I will do the same with a new string and compare.
VP
 
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Victory Pete said:
I didnt say tighten, of course it wouldnt, 10 lbs is 10 lbs. It is the frequency I propose may rise.
VP
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the frequency can't rise without an increase in tension.
It's simple physics ...... a strings' pitch is a function of mass and tension. And before anyone says "what about length?" .... well .... in this case length is simply another measure of mass ..... longer string has more mass.
So ..... if a string has the same mass (i.e. doesn't get fatter or longer or shorter or skinnier) and has the same tension (in this case 10lbs) it's not possible for the pitch to change.
It's really basic physics and there's no way around it.
 
Victory Pete said:
No, I have stated that I find my strings increase in stiffness and tension with time. It may be at the molecular level. Just a thought.
VP
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well if you have noticed that your strings have gotten more stiff and have more tension that means that they would go up in pitch.

my point is that it is impossible for a neck to warp due to the tension of the strings magically increasing. its backwards, the tension of the strings increase (or decrease) due to the neck warping because of humidity 'n' whatnot.
 
Lt. Bob said:
I have no reason to be uncivil.
And I understand your bimetal example but I'll just say I don't agree with you.
Here's why:
first ..... any changes in the size of the wood in the neck from humidity would be across the grain rather than lengthwise because any change is due to the grain and plant cells absorbing water which would make the grain fatter and the change in size would be at a 90 degree angle from the grain direction .... not lengthwise as you feel.
Not only that, but if humidity changes the length of the neck and thus, the straightness of it, then guitar necks would constantly change all the time as humidity changed from day to day. Since I've had hundreds of guitars and rarely have to adjust the truss rod at all once it's right .... that doesn't jive with the fact that in Louisiana the humidity would go from low to super high all the time. I have 35 year old guitars that have never required a truss rod adjustment and they've certainly seen humidity extremes.
And now I live in Fla. which is probably worse in terms of changing humidity.

I will say that I see why you might think the things you do and some of it seems logical on intial examination. And far be it from me to set myself up as the arbiter of guitar knowledge.
But one thing I'm just positive about ..... a string with a weight on it can hang until the end of time and it will only get longer if anything.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that info. If wood doesnt change in length then how come the joints of the trim boards in side my house open and close with the RH. I installed the trim myself and used 45 degree joints, so the gaps arent as noticable as they change. A butt joint will appear to open more. Maybe there is more change across the grain but I cant believe it doesnt lengthen.
VP
 
Victory Pete said:
I didnt say tighten, of course it wouldnt, 10 lbs is 10 lbs. It is the frequency I propose may rise.
VP
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If the tension is the same, but the frequency (by which I think you mean pitch :confused:) has been altered, then mass per unit length or vibrating length would have to alter somehow. Which wouldn't happen. Even on a molecular level
 
Lt. Bob said:
the frequency can't rise without an increase in tension.
It's simple physics ...... a strings' pitch is a function of mass and tension. And before anyone says "what about length?" .... well .... in this case length is simply another measure of mass ..... longer string has more mass.
So ..... if a string has the same mass (i.e. doesn't get fatter or longer or shorter or skinnier) and has the same tension (in this case 10lbs) it's not possible for the pitch to change.
It's really basic physics and there's no way around it.
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What if the material got stiffer and more brittle.
VP
 
Victory Pete said:
Thanks for that info. If wood doesnt change in length then how come the joints of the trim boards in side my house open and close with the RH. I installed the trim myself and used 45 degree joints, so the gaps arent as noticable as they change. A butt joint will appear to open more. Maybe there is more change across the grain but I cant believe it doesnt lengthen.
VP
Click to expand...
IMO they open and close because of temperature change and not humidity.
My concrete driveway does the exact same thing and it's certainly not because of the concrete absorbing water. It's because the sun heats it up causing it to expand. Bridges do the same thing which is why they have expansion joints in them.
Same thing on your house.

As for the string getting stiffer or more brittle ...... that still wouldn't change the mass and therefore wouldn't change the pitch or tension.
And I can't see how a string would just get stiffer sitting there. Metal changes elasticity for specific reasons ..... and just sitting there doing nothing isn't one of them.
 
I'm gonna get me some popcorn and watch VP finally bury himself in his own shit once and for all.:D

This stuff is priceless.:D
 
32-20-Blues said:
Stiff and brittle don't come into it. Read this, it's a great explanation:

http://www.noyceguitars.com/Technotes/Articles/T3.html

Like Lt. Bob said, pitch is governed by the interplay between tension, length and mass (what I'd call mass per unit length).
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That is a great link, I just sifted through it. There is no mention of what happens to old strings. I cant believe I am the only one that notices new strings are more flexible. I always have to adjust my truss rod when I put on new strings, I have to loosen them a little bit. By the way I normally keep my necks almost straight with barely any relief. I keep my action very low so I have to make adjustments frequently to prevent buzzing. I am right on the threshold of buzzing.
VP
VP
 
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