My new live setup... thoughts?

[philbagg]

Ok, so I'm thinking of this for my new live setup and just wondering if there's
any roadblocks.

What I have:
Rockwood Les Paul
MBox 2
Boss ME-50 (just for a little compression going in, controlling peaks etc. nothing else)
Guitar Rig 3.2.1 with Kontrol pedal

What I want:
I'll be looking into getting a new laptop (XP, either with 2 or 3gb of RAM or maybe
upgrading once I get it, I'll look into that separately)

and this:
http://www.behringer.de/EN/Products/FCB1010.aspx

The reason I want the behringer midi controller pedal is because it has easier
ways to switch presets (as opposed to pressing multiple pedals to get to a
specific preset), and it has two expression pedals as opposed to one

So setup like this:
Guitar >
ME-50 compressor >
MBox2 >
Laptop/Guitar Rig Standalone Software - controlled by MIDI pedal

then pan everything hard left in guitar rig and take left mono output from the
MBox2 to the desk, leaving mr. engineer to do what he pleases.

Any thoughts? Or good strummin?

Also, I have a 150w Valvestate Marshall Amp which I've really grown to dislike,
and Guitar Rig blows it out of the water aswell. Bought the amp for about €350
at christmas 2007, was on sale (RRP was approx. €750).
As far as I know, the valves are f****d, so I'm thinking of getting them
replaced (anyone have a rough price?), and then selling the amp for about
€400 - €500 (depending on the price of the valve replacement) to help
pay for this new setup. Is this too much money to be asking? The amp is in
perfect condition except for the valves.

Cheers guys
Phil

 

[DrewPeterson7]

You know, on one hand I think you're crazy, but on the other I suspect people gigging with laptops is going to become WAY more common in the coming years. You may be crazy, but you just may be at the vaguard in gigging technology.

I thought the Valvestates were solid state - do they have a single 12AX7/EC883 preamp tube? If so, then swapping that one tube would be cheap - Probably $12 or so. I'd go with maybe a Tung-sol or something, they seem to work very well as a V1 tube (the first tube in a cascading gain preamp, or the only tube in your case. )

 

[Zaphod B]

I have a hard time getting my head around that as a live rig.

Guess I'm old-fashioned but I really believe in actual guitar amplifiers, preferably with tubes in 'em. Stompboxes or a rack unit for FX. Much more basic and authentic.

Just my humble opinion!

 

[c7sus]

This is straight guitar, not MIDI'd guitar playing samples, right???

Seems like a really complicated signal chain just to play an amp simulator.

 

[philbagg]

I thought the Valvestates were solid state - do they have a single 12AX7/EC883 preamp tube? If so, then swapping that one tube would be cheap - Probably $12 or so. I'd go with maybe a Tung-sol or something, they seem to work very well as a V1 tube (the first tube in a cascading gain preamp, or the only tube in your case. )

You lost me at hello...

AFAIK, "valvestate" amps are hybrid amps, so they use both valve and solid
state. Other than that, I have no clue. I'll be bringing it into the shop and trying
to seem like I know a little so they don't think "idiot, easy money"

I have a hard time getting my head around that as a live rig.

Guess I'm old-fashioned but I really believe in actual guitar amplifiers, preferably with tubes in 'em. Stompboxes or a rack unit for FX. Much more basic and authentic.

Just my humble opinion!

I know, I know. The real thing, 99.9% of the time is unrivaled. But I don't
have the kind of money for the most amazing sounds out there. And besides,
this thing is pretty f***in cool. The sounds are amazing, and it's a hell of a lot
cheaper than the hardware versions of everything they model.

I was very skeptic about guitar amp modelling, doing a lot of "try before I buy",
and then deleting every one because I hated them. This one I actually went
out and bought and am willing to sell my amp to help pay to expand it.

And from what I've heard, more and more pro guitarists are using this kind
of setup more and more (Line 6 POD, Digidesigns Eleven, and Guitar Rig etc.).

Don't mean to sound like I'm selling it, but have you heard the kind of sounds
this thing can make?

Cheers,
Phil

 

[philbagg]

This is straight guitar, not MIDI'd guitar playing samples, right???

Seems like a really complicated signal chain just to play an amp simulator.

straight guitar, amp modelling. No MIDI guitar at all, that's awful

It is complicated, but I reckon it's worth it. If I'm enjoying the sounds, I'm
enjoying the gig, I'm playing better (i hope). Ya know yourself

 

[Zaphod B]

Don't mean to sound like I'm selling it, but have you heard the kind of sounds
this thing can make?

Cheers,
Phil

Not that particular setup, no. (Well, I'm sure I've heard something similar on any number of commercial pop tunes.) I have a Pod XT Live that, with a little preset tweaking, does an admirable job of FX and amp modeling. Never used it live, though, just for home studio work and as a practice rig. And I'm all for the flexibility that such a rig can provide.

I'd also think that the more a guitar player leans towards "modern" high-gain amp sounds with a fair bit of FX thrown in, the harder it is to hear the difference between a good modeling rig and an amp, unless you're talking about actually feeling the air coming off a big-ass rig.

My style of music, though, involves clean to medium (maybe medium-high?) gains, and I'll stick with the old-fashioned stuff. I do plan on getting a couple of Eventide FX boxes to have a nice complement of delay and LFO effects.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

You lost me at hello...

AFAIK, "valvestate" amps are hybrid amps, so they use both valve and solid
state. Other than that, I have no clue. I'll be bringing it into the shop and trying
to seem like I know a little so they don't think "idiot, easy money"

They're hybrids, but only just barely. They typically have a single 12AX7 tube in the preamp, and run through a solid state poweramp. The problem with this setup (disclaimer - in my opinion) is twofold - first, that I think the real value of a tube amp is in the natural compression from the poweramp, and not the preamp distortion, and second, that in a modern high gain amp you need WAY more than the two gain stages a single 12AX7 will provide, so you're still mainly dealing with solid state preamp distortion, as well.

What all this boils down to is, if your preamp tube is fucked up, the repair bill ought to be cheap.

Out of curiosity, though, why do you think the valves are bad and need to be replaced?

 

[suprstar]

I had a valvestate 150h, couldn't stand it, I ran a POD into it vs listening to its natural tone! They put in a single 12ax7 preamp tube, then they can market it as a 'tube amp' to the noobies who don't know the difference.. It's just an entry level "tube" amp that says 'Marshall' on it, so the kids can get all hot & bothered, but it might as well be a cheap Crate. I'd sell it and if I couldn't throw a little extra towards a better 1/2stack, I'd buy a nicer 2x12 combo or something, anything..

That being said, I'd gig with practically ANY real amp before I'd take a laptop on stage, I'd be too afraid of a crash in the middle of a song.

And I doubt your tube is fukd up, but if it is, and you wanna fix it, I'd experiment with a couple different tubes, see if I could get a different (ie better) sound out of it.

 

[philbagg]

Not that particular setup, no. (Well, I'm sure I've heard something similar on any number of commercial pop tunes.) I have a Pod XT Live that, with a little preset tweaking, does an admirable job of FX and amp modeling. Never used it live, though, just for home studio work and as a practice rig. And I'm all for the flexibility that such a rig can provide.

I'd also think that the more a guitar player leans towards "modern" high-gain amp sounds with a fair bit of FX thrown in, the harder it is to hear the difference between a good modeling rig and an amp, unless you're talking about actually feeling the air coming off a big-ass rig.

My style of music, though, involves clean to medium (maybe medium-high?) gains, and I'll stick with the old-fashioned stuff. I do plan on getting a couple of Eventide FX boxes to have a nice complement of delay and LFO effects.

Don't get me wrong. I'd MUCH prefer to deal with the real thing. My dream
amp, dream pedals, dream guitar etc. However, in reality, this seems to be
the closest thing I can get without selling some vital organs

That being said, since I got Guitar Rig, I haven't STFU about it, I love it

They're hybrids, but only just barely. They typically have a single 12AX7 tube in the preamp, and run through a solid state poweramp. The problem with this setup (disclaimer - in my opinion) is twofold - first, that I think the real value of a tube amp is in the natural compression from the poweramp, and not the preamp distortion, and second, that in a modern high gain amp you need WAY more than the two gain stages a single 12AX7 will provide, so you're still mainly dealing with solid state preamp distortion, as well.

What all this boils down to is, if your preamp tube is fucked up, the repair bill ought to be cheap.

Out of curiosity, though, why do you think the valves are bad and need to be replaced?

When I got it, it sounded good. Now, during practice and recording (in other
words: LOUD!) all I can hear is a nasty screeching air around 2K. It's not
too bad for recording because I have an EQ at hand that I can use to
cut down on it. But, because I have to cut out around 2-3K on my guitars,
they really get lost in the mix due to lack of presence. If I turn em up, they
mask other things. Turn em down, they get masked. Turn up the presence,
I get that nasty stuff. Never ending cycle

Also, I reckon they need replacing because I've had it two years, play it
often enough at a loud volume, and I believe that valves normally need
replacing after a year/year and a half.

Personally, I reckon something must have changed from the time I got it. If
it always sounded this bad, I would've returned it once I turned it up and
heard that horrible sound.

Also, I really don't like the amp's EQ. It doesn't give me enough cut/boost.
I turn the bass all the way down and it's still not far enough. Mid's seem ok,
treble doesn't give me enough cut/boost either.

Besides, a laptop is about 1/10th the weight

PS: I know it's not my pedal. I've tried it with 4 diff pedals and different
settings, and with the amp tone itself, same 2K shite

Cheers for the responses guys

 

[philbagg]

I had a valvestate 150h, couldn't stand it, I ran a POD into it vs listening to its natural tone! They put in a single 12ax7 preamp tube, then they can market it as a 'tube amp' to the noobies who don't know the difference.. It's just an entry level "tube" amp that says 'Marshall' on it, so the kids can get all hot & bothered, but it might as well be a cheap Crate.

That's what happened to me Didn't know anything at the time really. Just
saw "valve" and thought "hmm... different. must sound good "
Didn't even know what the hell a valve was. The whole valve/solid-state thing
just seemed like mumbo jumbo to me at the time. Still beat my 50w Marshall
though Now I know the difference, and more importantly, can HEAR the
difference, and I hate it. Knowledge can be a curse

That being said, I'd gig with practically ANY real amp before I'd take a laptop on stage, I'd be too afraid of a crash in the middle of a song.

I'm willing to take that risk. If nobody'd ever done it before, I'd be a little
worried. But more and more session musicians and famous artists are doing
this kind of thing in a live situation these days.

Was at the judas priest gig a few months back and I'm nearly positive I saw
the engineer at the desk using an amp simulator and changing the settings
between songs (to model/recreate the tones used on the albums), and he
did a bloody good job of it too. Amazing sound! I want it

Cheers,
Phil

 

[ReInventor]

I agree that it would be hard for me to trust a laptop onstage. Even if it doesn't crash, it is prone to pops and clicks and temporary freezes.

If I were you, I would find out how costly it would be to fix the Valvestate and do so if cost effective. Then I would set your EQ flat and get an EQ pedal to put either in front of your amp or in your fx loop since you don't find the amp's EQ useful.

If you're wanting flexibility, I would get a POD or some other multi-effects engine. Depending on your choice, you may not need the EQ.

If you're stuck on the computer based amp modeler then I would make sure to put a substantial portion of my budget into making your computer as robust and reliable as possible.

 

[ReInventor]

Oh another thing. Something I don't like about your whole idea is that you're very reliant on the engineer and the sound system to make your sound work. In most places small bands play, a 100 watt half stack can stand on its own. But without your own power source, if you're in a place with a crappy PA, you're gonna get a crappy sound.

So, add to your list a power amp and cab. That's why I recommended just going the traditional route. You can probably even use the Valvestate for this if you set it flat and clean, and disable any cab simulation in your software. You should probably go through the effects return.

Good luck!

 

[nzausrec]

There's the problem that any guitar amp will affect the sounds from Guitar Rig as guitar amps have their own cabinet sound going on - so u have to disable/bypass the cabinets in the Guitar Rig when using a conventional amp.
I heard that the best amp to use for onstage use of the Guitar Rig is a non processing amp or a neutral amp like a keyboard amp, pa speakers, or a powered monitor, so the modelling can be clear and unprocessed and u can use the cabinets on the Rig.

As for using the laptop, I have one that is often temperamental for even word processing yet I have used it a couple of times at practice and it didn't fail. What did fail me was bypassing the cabinets as those are what make the softwares so good. If the laptop is dedicated to the guitar and there is adequate cooling (nothing blocking the fan) there shouldn't be a problem. My one has all my son's games in it as well as lots of other programs and uses the audio interface (mine's usb) for the guitar in. If that works for two hours in the rooms then why not two hours anywhere else?

I reckon using Guitar Rig or another program is fine. Just you have to choose the right amplification.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Don't take offense but the Valvestates aren't very good amps. So I wouldn't be surprised if you can get a much better sound with the rig you're proposing. If you want to have an onstage amp/speaker of your own just in case the house PA sucks, I'd go the PA cab and power amp route.
Go ahead and let the software do it's thing, I wouldn't run that stuff thru a guitar amp ...... then you'd have two sets of amp characteristics to deal with at the same time plus they'd each affect how the other would sound.

Having said that, I've yet to see a modeler of any kind that can stand toe to toe with a good all-tube amp.
Of course you gotta kick out a couple of grand or more for those amps. But this rig of yours doesn't come cheap either.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Also, I reckon they need replacing because I've had it two years, play it
often enough at a loud volume, and I believe that valves normally need
replacing after a year/year and a half.

Power tubes do but that's a pre-amp tube. Depending on how hot they're running it, they can last for decades!

 

[mcmetal]

I've seen the band Nile 4 times.The one guitarist uses a laptop with his rig.I don't know if it's just for effects or if it's his actual rig but 3 of the 4 times i've seen them he had problems with it during his performance.Twice at the trocadero in philly and once at a metalfest in N.J. I also seen them at the ozzfest but i can't remember if he had any glitches that time or not.It's your choice but crashes do happen.

 

[Light]

I'm just seeing too damn many failure spots for that system to be reliable - not to mention the PITA of trying to trouble shoot something with that many interfaces.

You've got the Mbox, the laptop, and then the Mbox again, then the PA system, not to mention the mouth breather running it (and this is coming from someone who has done a lot of live sound work), and even in the sound system you have both the front of house side and the monitor side. Plus, monitors suck for trying to get good feedback.

IF you are going to try this (and it probably goes without saying I think it is an awful idea) you really need to have a real power amp and cabinet. Relying on the sound guy let you hear your sound is just asking for trouble. IF you've got a good sound guy (questionable) behind a good system (even more questionable) you are still going to have a hard time hearing yourself with everything else that is coming out of the monitor. One of the things that makes a BIG difference in your ability to distinguish between yourself and other people on the stage is the difference in location of your amp. If you only have your sound coming from the monitor, things get very confused for most players. And if you are getting any feedback, the guy running the monitors is going to hate you - HATE you. Which doesn't help you in any way. Back when Roland came out with the VG-8 (their first modeling thing), Reeves Gabrel was using one on-stage with David Bowie. He was feeding it directly to the sound guys, and like the rest of the band was using in-ear monitors with a sound guy and system he could completely trust. He STILL had a power amp and cabinet on stage to, as he once told me, "get feedback and make his pants flap."

Also, you'd better hope you are not playing with another player using a real amp, because your sound just won't be able to compete. If you are actually asking for opinions here, what you are suggesting is an awful idea in every single way. If you are just trying to brag about your clever idea (it's not, by the way), at the very least use your current amp's power amp and cabinet so you can actually hear yourself. It's really hard to play if you can't hear yourself (just ask the Rolling Stones about playing at the Super Bowl!)

Oh, and I also looked up that Valvestate schematic, and the tube in your amp: 1) is not being used as V1, but as near as I can tell (I haven't actually done the math to figure out what the tube is seeing) is being used in a starved plate mode, which is almost surely why you don't like it, and 2) the tube doesn't need to be replaced. The only tubes that wear out on a regular basis are the power tubes, and slightly less often the phase inverter tube. The tube in your amp is doing neither of these things, and should last at least 5 year of regular use, if not more. Pre-amp tubes just don't often wear out - they just don't get put through much stress. And they way amps like that are designed is to minimize the impact of the tube, because tubes are rather unpredictable, and they don't actually want tube character - they just want to be able to say it has a tube in it. Replacing it with a better tube, or really replacing it at all, probably will make no difference in the sound of the amp.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[philbagg]

Ok so there's been a lot of opinions and thoughts, some even a little hostile
sounding, but I appreciate the help.

Now, as I said in the OP, this is something I was THINKING about, and no, I am
most certainly not "bragging" about such a simple idea. I just figured, "amazing
sound at home, potentially amazing sound live."

I am also looking into some valve amps. Some seem very pricy. There's a few
I saw that are about 40/50 watt. How would that translate in rehearsals
(competing with drums) and live? Will I have enough power or will I be drowned
out? I'm used to using a 150w amp so I'm not entirely sure. Also, if I'm constantly
fully cranking the amp, do I run the risk of blowing the amp? (happened twice
to my old 50w marshall SS amp)

Anyone have any recommendations for amps? The spider valve series from
Line 6 looks good (fairly sure I used one on stage last week, sounded SWEEEEET)
Also used a fender amp the other night, looked fairly similar to this:
http://www.magdonmusic.com/amps/Fender/images/product/lg/fender_deluxe65-reverbtwina.jpg
That too, was quite lovely

I've been talking to a lot of engineers I know (very experienced in live and studio
and also very talented) and they seemed to think the guitar rig method was
a good one. But also, that you just cant beat a real (great) tube amp.

Finances aren't too great

 

[Lt. Bob]

Ok so there's been a lot of opinions and thoughts, some even a little hostile
sounding, but I appreciate the help.

Now, as I said in the OP, this is something I was THINKING about, and no, I am
most certainly not "bragging" about such a simple idea. I just figured, "amazing
sound at home, potentially amazing sound live."

I am also looking into some valve amps. Some seem very pricy. There's a few
I saw that are about 40/50 watt. How would that translate in rehearsals
(competing with drums) and live? Will I have enough power or will I be drowned
out? I'm used to using a 150w amp so I'm not entirely sure. Also, if I'm constantly
fully cranking the amp, do I run the risk of blowing the amp? (happened twice
to my old 50w marshall SS amp)

Anyone have any recommendations for amps? The spider valve series from
Line 6 looks good (fairly sure I used one on stage last week, sounded SWEEEEET)
Also used a fender amp the other night, looked fairly similar to this:
http://www.magdonmusic.com/amps/Fender/images/product/lg/fender_deluxe65-reverbtwina.jpg
That too, was quite lovely

I've been talking to a lot of engineers I know (very experienced in live and studio
and also very talented) and they seemed to think the guitar rig method was
a good one. But also, that you just cant beat a real (great) tube amp.

Finances aren't too great

Well ..... you'll have to do what your finances will allow and I've already said, and I'll say it again, you ought to be able to get a good sound out of that rig.
I just think a good tube amp would do better.

First thing I'd want to know before suggesting amps is what kind of music will you be playing and what size venues and what size band?

Most good 50 watt tube amps would easily keep up with that 150 watt SS amp. There's lots of reasons, and opinions, on why that is; but the important fact here is that they do. Tubed amps just have a much higher perceived volume than SS amps. And in this context you may as well consider a hybrid like that Valvestate as a SS amp.
But really, without knowing more about what you're gonna be doing I wouldn't want to suggest anything. I could easily steer you wrong.
And if finances are tough right now, well really ...... most of the good stuff costs. It might be something you'll just have to make a future goal and go with what you have for now. That ME50 is a decent multi-fx ...... I've heard guys get a decent sound out of that alone.