Guitar not staying in tune

  • Thread starter Thread starter annihilator
  • Start date Start date
Holy crap !!!!!!

I've been playin guitar for over 40 years....never had a guitar with any kind of trem (just not my style,nothin against them) but that trem is seriously jacked up !! A friend has a similar set up on one of his guitars,and it sets pretty much flush with the body.....Have you checked to see if there are any springs in there at all ? Ya never know.......:eek:
 
If you take the back cover off, there should be 3 or 4 coil springs connecting the trem block to the spring claw, which should have two screws threaded into the body. With that type of trem, the bridge should be parallel with the body when the strings are tuned to pitch, usually this involves adjusting the tension of the springs as you get the strings up to pitch. You can make this a little quicker by using a thin piece of wood between the bridge plate and the body and presetting the spring tension a bit before you start tuning the strings.

Yes, it's fiddly and takes some time, but that's the nature of the beast. And these springs need no oil, fish or otherwise.
 
annihilator said:
Thanks for the answers guys,

I have noticed that the bridge isn't anywhere parallel to the guitar and is horribly angular:
2hz7aiu.jpg


Whenever I detune a string, the bridge's angle changes, which changes the tuning of ALL other strings.

Any depressing of the tremolo bar results in a detuning of ALL the strings.

What do I do?
Click to expand...

That trem should sit level with strings on it. Floating double locking trems like that usually only work well with standard tuning as the springs are calibrated to standard tension based on the scale of the guitar and guage it was set up with. Alternate tunings will have different overall tension and the spring calibration will not work properly. They are a PITA to get to stay in tune too but they do once you get it.
 
Well, first of all, it looks like you have no springs on that trem. Second, I'm guessing the bearing edge (where the trem pivots against the posts) is not seated properly. After that, for a professional it is about an hour and twenty minutes - maybe an hour and 45 - to get things working right (about $125-150 in my shop). If you've never done it before, figure about six hours before you decide it's "good enough." (Which it won't be.)

Seriously, take it to a good shop, get it set up, and then you will know what "right" is, which will make your life a LOT easier when you try to do your own setup next time.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Hmmm, I've had a few posts disappear overnight from this and other threads...


Anyways, yes from the looks of that picture, you MUST be missing the tremolo springs on the back side of the guitar for the tailpiece to be sticking THAT far up.

A quick lesson on floating tremolo systems:

The tremolo springs balance the tension of the 6 strings on the guitar. It's a balancing act with floating tremolos, that's why they're called "floating". You have to put the correct number of springs on the back (1 thru 5) to correctly balance the tension provided by your strings. This tension will vary depending on what gauge of strings you use and the tuning that you use. The number of springs you use will give you a rough balance between the tension of the strings and the tension of the springs. Then you adjust the screws that hold the spring claw on the body to fine-tune the spring tension so that you end up with a tremolo that's floating parallel to the body.

If you're going to do it yourself, we're going to need some more pics. So take off the back cover on the guitar and show us a pic of the inside of that back cavity where the trem springs are.

Otherwise, do what's been suggested a number of times already and take it to a pro. It's not impossible to do this yourself, but it's going to take some time to get it dialed in properly if you do it yourself.

6 hours seems a little on the long side for a floating trem DIY, but it'll definitely take you a few hours your first time. Once you get it roughly correct, then there's the frustrating process of making small adjustments to the trem spring screws, retuning, checking the trem balance, readjusting the screws, retuning, rechecking the balance...It takes a while but it'll be worth learning how to do it.

All it takes is a small amount of know-how and a lot of patience.
 
Tadpui said:
The number of springs you use will give you a rough balance between the tension of the strings and the tension of the springs. Then you adjust the screws that hold the spring claw on the body to fine-tune the spring tension so that you end up with a tremolo that's floating parallel to the body.
Click to expand...

Just picking a nit here... Adjusting the screws does not change the tension in the springs unless the trem block is against one side or the other of the routed hole. The spring tension is always the same as the string tension if the trem is floating; adjusting the screws changes the position of the block.
 
ggunn said:
Just picking a nit here... Adjusting the screws does not change the tension in the springs unless the trem block is against one side or the other of the routed hole. The spring tension is always the same as the string tension if the trem is floating; adjusting the screws changes the position of the block.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. You're probably right but let me put my point of view out there and see if we're actually talking about the same thing.

Let's take this picture as an example, since it looks almost exactly like what my floating trem guitars have looked like:

100_7719.jpg


So the trem springs are attached to the tailpiece on one end and the spring "claw" on the other end. So the strings pull the tailpiece one way and the springs pull the tailpiece the other way. So when you tighten the screws in the back cavity, it pulls on the springs and causes the tailpiece to move towards that end of the cavity.

OK now that I've thought it through, I think you're right after all. There isn't more tension, it's the same amount of tension. It's just the position that's changed. But in my mind, screwing the screws so that the claw moves closer to its side of the cavity will pull on the springs more, creating more tension. This increase in tension will increase the pitch of all of the strings. Then you have to compensate for this increase in tension by tuning all of the strings back down to standard pitch, which equalizes the tension once more and lets the tailpiece rest (hopefully) parallel to the body of the guitar.

Anyways, hopefully the image above helps the OP understand what the back of his tailpiece should look like. This spring is the exact same configuration that I used when I had either .009 or .010 strings on my floating trem guitars. I ended up with the middle spring on the middle hook of the claw and the middle hole of the tailpiece. Then each of the outer springs was on a hook adjacent to the center hook of the claw but the other ends were on an outer hole of the tailpiece. That's a lot more confusing in words than it is in the picture, eh? Just look at the picture. That should be what your springs should probably look like if you're using .009 or .010 strings. Heavier strings need more springs to couteract the increased tension. Lighter strings need fewer springs.
 
These are a little dark but here is another example and a double locking system just like the OP has. Floyd Rose type: Has three springs and room for two more for different setups. Notice that there are no string ball ends though. The one pictured above by Tadpui is a single locking type but it still has the same spring system.

1004092312.jpg


The string ball end is cut off and clamped between a plate and set screw.

1004092315.jpg


Notice how the bridge is level to the body.

1004092313.jpg


Just another view. The thumb screws allow fine tuning so you don't have to unlock the locking nut.

1004092313a.jpg


It appears that the springs are missing and you are just depending on the string tension and the bridge is resting at different points as it wedges itself against the bottom edge in the routered hole in the body and since the pivot point is at such an angle it is going to rest differently every time it moves since it was not designed to park itself against the body but float in the middle.

Crack it open and see what is/isn't there anymore.
 
annihilator said:
No. I want to learn what the problem is and what I need to do. I can't go out and get a setup done every time. I want to learn. So please, if you got nothing to say, then say nothing.
Click to expand...

If you REALLY want to learn...

Read this:

http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/index.htm

and then read this:

http://www.jemsite.com/articles-menu/tech-setup-questions/

There's a lot of information on those two pages. I could write you a small book summarizing it, but you're probably better off just wading in firsthand. A good 95% of what I learned about setting up floating trems came from these two sources.

In short, though... the bridge angle SHOULD change as you change the tuning of each string. A floating bridge is called that because the bridge "floats" on pivot points, and is held level in place by the string tension from the neck coming to equiliberum with the spring tension from the trem cavity. It's a bit of a dicy balancing act, but what you want to do is gradually adjust the spring tension and retune until the guitar is tuned to concert pitch with the bridge parallel to the body.

Victory Pete - where is your shop located? I set up guitars for friends too, but the difference between you and me (aside from the fact I actually know what I'm doing) is that I don't pretend to be this big badassed guitar tech for it... Now, do you actually have a shop in Rhode Island, or do you just twist screws in your living room too?
 
Brian Oshman said:
These are a little dark but here is another example and a double locking system just like the OP has. Floyd Rose type: Has three springs and room for two more for different setups. Notice that there are no string ball ends though. The one pictured above by Tadpui is a single locking type but it still has the same spring system.

1004092312.jpg


The string ball end is cut off and clamped between a plate and set screw.

1004092315.jpg


Notice how the bridge is level to the body.

1004092313.jpg


Just another view. The thumb screws allow fine tuning so you don't have to unlock the locking nut.

1004092313a.jpg


It appears that the springs are missing and you are just depending on the string tension and the bridge is resting at different points as it wedges itself against the bottom edge in the routered hole in the body and since the pivot point is at such an angle it is going to rest differently every time it moves since it was not designed to park itself against the body but float in the middle.

Crack it open and see what is/isn't there anymore.
Click to expand...

I have the same tremelo in a Strat. I will take it out and investigate. I think I only have 3 springs also.
VP
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
If you REALLY want to learn...

Read this:

http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/index.htm

and then read this:

http://www.jemsite.com/articles-menu/tech-setup-questions/

There's a lot of information on those two pages. I could write you a small book summarizing it, but you're probably better off just wading in firsthand. A good 95% of what I learned about setting up floating trems came from these two sources.

In short, though... the bridge angle SHOULD change as you change the tuning of each string. A floating bridge is called that because the bridge "floats" on pivot points, and is held level in place by the string tension from the neck coming to equiliberum with the spring tension from the trem cavity. It's a bit of a dicy balancing act, but what you want to do is gradually adjust the spring tension and retune until the guitar is tuned to concert pitch with the bridge parallel to the body.

Victory Pete - where is your shop located? I set up guitars for friends too, but the difference between you and me (aside from the fact I actually know what I'm doing) is that I don't pretend to be this big badassed guitar tech for it... Now, do you actually have a shop in Rhode Island, or do you just twist screws in your living room too?
Click to expand...

I dont pretend to be anything I am not. I have a shop in West Greenwich R.I
VP
 
CMunch said:
You don't know?

S0 you have never been in there with the WD-40. :D
Click to expand...

I dont remember but I think it is 3 springs. I used WD-40 on an old strat that had rusted springs, and dont assume I spray it all over the place, WD-40 comes in other containers than spray cans. Maybe you need more than 2 1/2 years of playing a guitar before you get so gung ho and judgemental.
ViP
 
Victory Pete said:
I dont remember but I think it is 3 springs. I used WD-40 on an old strat that had rusted springs, and dont assume I spray it all over the place, WD-40 comes in other containers than spray cans. Maybe you need more than 2 1/2 years of playing a guitar before you get so gung ho and judgemental.
ViP
Click to expand...

:p I don't even know what to say to that.

I've been playing Floyd-equipped guitars, and doing all my own tech work, for the better part of a decade, so I hope you consider me "experienced" enough to answer this question. If not, well, fuck it, a couple other sites I post at consider me an expert because I've done setups for a lot of local guys and a lot of other ones have played my guitars, so I can live. ;)

You can, realistically, get away with anything from 2 to 5 springs on a Floyd, depending on spring gauge. If you're using light strings (9s or lighter) and really crank down on the claw screws, you can get away with 2's - as your string gauge goes up (assuming standard tuning) you'll need more springs. I play 10-68 on my seven string and I actually don't remember for sure, but I think I'm running four springs at the moment - I was able to just get away with three, but I like to be able to pop the springs out to quickly remove the bridge pretty easily, and it's a lot harder to stretch them that far than it was to use four and stretch each spring a shorter difference.

Not all springs are created equal, btw - I remember when a couple guys on a forum I run were experimenting with ESP Arming Adjusters, they tracked down some shorter, higher-tension springs that allowed them to get adequate spring tension in a shorter cavity.

Anyway, gist is, the number of strings (or their angle: I I I vs \I/ ) doesn't really matter, spring tension is what counts. It just takes a lot of experimenting (if you've never done this before, expect it to be an hour or two - I've lucked out a few times and completely set up a Floyd from scratch in about 15 minutes, but that was just by eyeballing the spring claw and getting VERY lucky) before you get a feel for it.
 
Victory Pete said:
I dont remember but I think it is 3 springs. I used WD-40 on an old strat that had rusted springs, and dont assume I spray it all over the place, WD-40 comes in other containers than spray cans. Maybe you need more than 2 1/2 years of playing a guitar before you get so gung ho and judgemental.
ViP
Click to expand...

Green smiley = joking, okay. :D see.

If you are calling me out dude? I'm happy to post proof of my twenty five years playing and repairing instruments if you can do similair. ;)

You are correct though, I had no interest in playing guitar until 2 1/2 years ago, my bro had guitar covered. ;) :)
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
Cool. You guys have a website? what's your position within the shop?
Click to expand...

My position in the shop right now is on this damn computer instead of at my bench. I figured I would leave my personal and business information seperate from any forum.
ViP
 
Victory Pete said:
My position in the shop right now is on this damn computer instead of at my bench. I figured I would leave my personal and business information seperate from any forum.
ViP
Click to expand...

I don't blame you, the way you post here! :p
 
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