Is There A Point?

  • Thread starter Thread starter justinm.
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I'm not in it just for the money. I can't be since I don't make any. But above someone mentioned they have only sold 8 copies of their CD, and while that's nothing to everyone I'm sure, I would actually be amazed and even a bit satisfied if I made something and it was purchased, not just by friends or family...even if it's only 8 copies. I wasn't saying that I expect to be rich or make it big. If I was on the smallest record label in the world, that'd be great.

But even that seems impossible. I really wonder if I went to all the trouble of recording something decent, if I would just end up feeling frustrated. After all, why record something if there is no chance of anyone hearing it?
 
justinm. said:
I'm not in it just for the money. I can't be since I don't make any. But above someone mentioned they have only sold 8 copies of their CD, and while that's nothing to everyone I'm sure, I would actually be amazed and even a bit satisfied if I made something and it was purchased, not just by friends or family...even if it's only 8 copies. I wasn't saying that I expect to be rich or make it big. If I was on the smallest record label in the world, that'd be great.

But even that seems impossible. I really wonder if I went to all the trouble of recording something decent, if I would just end up feeling frustrated. After all, why record something if there is no chance of anyone hearing it?
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A few thoughts:

There's no reason you should think that no one will hear your music. You can put it on YouTube, iTunes, here etc... there's a zillion opportunities for you to get your music heard, many free.

You don't need CD's to get your music heard. You need CD's if you have a gig where you can sell them or some other event/situation where you can sell them. Just making CD's and thinking you can sell them at a local store and mail order or something is not happening. People will buy them at gigs because it's a souvenir of the event.

Maybe the reason to do it is to develop your craft?

Most musicians I know are somewhat obsessed with music and would do it no matter what, kinda like a heroin addict if you don't mind that comparison.

Maybe people will like it (what a concept)!
 
Whether you are pleased or disappointed with your recording efforts depends on why you went through the process in the first place.

There are many reasons why people record; sometimes to seek public acclaim or commercial succes, sometimes because it is just fun to do.

My performing days are over, as are my aspirations to stardom . . . but I still enjoy music immensely, specially recording it. The act of recording is its own reward.
 
dintymoore said:
A few thoughts:

There's no reason you should think that no one will hear your music. You can put it on YouTube, iTunes, here etc... there's a zillion opportunities for you to get your music heard, many free.

You don't need CD's to get your music heard. You need CD's if you have a gig where you can sell them or some other event/situation where you can sell them. Just making CD's and thinking you can sell them at a local store and mail order or something is not happening. People will buy them at gigs because it's a souvenir of the event.

Maybe the reason to do it is to develop your craft?
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See, the thing is is I am beyond this stage. Developing my craft? I've been developing it for 17 years. I've been composing music for 9 years (not writing words and banging out chords, but actual composition). I have performed to varying audiences with various styles of music, some were competitions, most were not. I have shown the world for many years many of my midi compositions. People around the world have heard me.

I felt it was time to finally put it all in and make a commercial product, as I felt I was ready. I was finishing up with business school, I was confident in myself, and I had the capital to put several thousand into hiring musicians. I wanted to finally be compensated for those 17 years of hard ass work.

The problem is my primary instrument are the drums. You never hear of drumming-songwriters...mainly because most drummers are incapable of making anything resembling a song, but also because they can't perform the song for anybody, either a listening public or bandmates. And I suck at singing too, which means its a matter of handing out sheet music (which requires years of training to learn as well) or in terms of sharing with the band, banging out the chord progression on the piano (since I do play piano, but not very well anymore).

*I* need CD's because of what I did write....a continuous rock opera. While people *can* rip the CD's into computer audio files, that is fine and that is their right. However, that is not the way I want people to listen to this. If they listened to it on shuffle, songs will abruptly start and stop (where the track begins and ends) and the progression of the story would make no sense. It was an artistic decision to have the physical CD. I may end up being forced to do digital downloads in order to break-even, but at the risk of artistic integrity.

So in this economy and in this industry, I literally have every card and chip turned against me. It is hard, and I'm figuring out new ways of marketing myself everyday. But it is still damn hard.
 
I hear what you're saying...

I'm a drummer too and have been doing this for a long time - since the 60's.

All I can say is that all the rules will probably be rewritten in the next few years and I have optimism that it will be better than now.

One option is to make a website of your own and put your songs on there as they will be the length and non-mp3 format you want.

I read once that you can judge a man's wealth not by what he has, but by what he gives away. So a problem comes up when you are trying to get the energy flow to come towards you.

I wouldn't give up, there's got to be a reason you're doing all of this. Sometimes it's best not to get too heavy into wondering why we do this because in the end you'll probably never know.

We are just in pre-paradigm mode so you can't judge things by how they are this week 'cause it won't be like this for long.
 
dintymoore said:
Most musicians I know are somewhat obsessed with music and would do it no matter what, kinda like a heroin addict if you don't mind that comparison.
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Hey! I can quit any time I want; I just need one more jam session to get through today, man.

While people *can* rip the CD's into computer audio files, that is fine and that is their right. However, that is not the way I want people to listen to this.
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Unfortunately, that's what most listeners want nowadays. There's a lot of depth to your album, and it takes some work to get into it. Which is great. If someone puts the effort in to get into Off the Spring, they're a lot more likely to still be listening to it a few years from now than something with less depth.
It just means that you have to work harder to get them to put that work in. There are a zillion ways to get your music listened to, and you may have to use all zillion of them to find the 1% of the population willing to give OtS the deep, attentive listen it needs.
 
You need to get listeners before you can expect to sell CDs. Almost no one is going to buy a CD by someone they never heard of, in a genre they're unfamilliar with just because. Especially if you are not in high street stores etc and even if you are if no one knows about it it won't sell.

You may have to bite the bullet and make some radio edits and approach local collecge radio, online radio like jango and Pandora and see if you can start getting played if you are not in a position to tke the show on the road.

Set up your CDs to be purchaseable thru amazon on demand so you don't have to keep making them and storing them and if people are liking the radio edits they hear maybe.....just maybe a few people will buy them

There is a huge amount of my space, face book and personal/band sites but in order for people to be intereseted enough to take a look they need to have heard something they like no one is actively going to search you out you have to make it easy for them by planting the seed of curiosity and like of your music throug a live show, a radio cut of a track, positive word of mouth. None of that is going to happen on it's own. Since you are not represented by a label you will have to take on what they would do if you want to be discovered by an adoring audience: shamelessly promote, spread the word create a buzz

If you are prepared to do all of that as well as writing and recording and mixing the music it can happen but it isn't easy and it takes at least as much time,effort and possibly expense that creating the album did.
 
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While I cannot speak for the 14 year-olds that live on myspace, facebook, and itunes, but based on my entourage, people still buy CDs!!!
I do too, but not just anyone who happens to compose rock opera or what have you. Sure I'll blindly buy the latest CD from a favorite established band like Pearl Jam or U2. I may even arrive late to an "old artist" like Lucinda Williams and buy up 2 or 3 CDs. However, to buy a CD by a new artist, say a Patrick Watson, I need to a) hear something interesting from the artist (radio, store, restaurant, bar...), or b) read an interesting review (independant press, music mags, online), or c) (less so) hear some buzz about the artist from friends or media (eg concert review), or d) (usually the case) combination of a+b+c.
I do not troll around myspace looing for new artist or browse itunes looking to buy $0.99 pieces of art.

just my 2sense
Rich
 
Yeah, actually, I'm gonna thread-hijack and ask if people have a list of college radios and internet radio that I can submit to. I've already sent off like 10 CD's to different radio stations, but I'm always looking for more. Location isn't really key, since I'm selling worldwide on CD Baby anyway.

/hijack

But yeah, I know about unfamiliar genres. I don't even know what to classify my CD. It isn't exactly progressive rock, although I do use unorthodox chord progressions in nearly every song, there are only 2-3 movements that one could call "progressive". It isn't mainstream rock, it isn't pop. It's not indie. It just can't be classified. Which blows, and I have issues explaining it to people at times.

"Well, its a rock opera."

"What does that mean?"

"Its a narrative set to rock music."

"What type of rock music?"

"Ummm...."

Sub-genres really kill me at times. I have this issue with my rock band, Rev 0. I classify us as a rock band but I can't sub-categorize ourselves at all. Because we don't fit into modern rock, classic rock, prog rock, pop rock, indie rock, garage rock. Why can't people just accept rock like in the old days?

A surprising amount of people still buy CD's. Sure your teenagers aren't buying anymore, and your indie snobs probably aren't either, but I work at Target, and we still move quite a few CD's...maybe not as much as 10 years ago, but more than most bloggers would lead you to believe. The CD is not dead yet, and even if it continues to go downhill like it has, it still has a lot of life left in it.

And of course I always have free samples, that was a given from the start. They were available well before the album came out.
 
Seafroggys said:
Yeah, actually, I'm gonna thread-hijack and ask if people have a list of college radios and internet radio that I can submit to. I've already sent off like 10 CD's to different radio stations, but I'm always looking for more. Location isn't really key, since I'm selling worldwide on CD Baby anyway.

.
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Getting something on the radio is more about knowing somebody or being able to bribe someone...(bribing somebody is illegal so it is ok to pass a counterfiet 20 or two...like who are they going to call)...I guess you can find that list of stations if you just google it.
 
I'm actually thinking internet radio moreso than FM radio. And I have found lists but they haven't been too helpful.

I'm waiting for CD Baby to put my CD up on Amazon, then I can tackle Pandora, which is the cream of the crop. But I'll have to wait a bit longer for that.
 
Seafroggys said:
I'm actually thinking internet radio moreso than FM radio. And I have found lists but they haven't been too helpful.

I'm waiting for CD Baby to put my CD up on Amazon, then I can tackle Pandora, which is the cream of the crop. But I'll have to wait a bit longer for that.
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Jango has a pay for play system until you get enough positive ratings to get into genral rotation

http://airplay.jango.com

They claim to have 7 million members worldwide and can link to your CD/MP3 store page from your profile
 
Well, I still buy and listen to CDs and I love Indie music. It's not the only kind of music I love though, I like some commercial music depending what it is. I actually think most Indie music lovers are the ones who still enjoy listening to albums as a whole, and are helping to keep them relevant.

Originally posted by Bristol Posse
You need to get listeners before you can expect to sell CDs. Almost no one is going to buy a CD by someone they never heard of, in a genre they're unfamilliar with just because. Especially if you are not in high street stores etc and even if you are if no one knows about it it won't sell.
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These are my feelings exactly, and a huge part of what I've been worrying about. It's kinda holding me back from purchasing better gear, and really making me think twice about trying to accomplish what I want.

There are lots of great ideas in this thread, but I've tried posting on myspace and youtube, and while those would seem to be helpful in getting your music out there, when you are a nobody with no fans, no TV or radio play, and not lucky enough to have the right connections, you'll find out real quick just how (almost) useless those sites are. I only have demos posted, but how much does it matter? Problem: The public still won't hear your music on those sites unless they actually click on them, and when you are a complete unknown...you may as well be invisible.

myspace
 
This is an interesting thread.

I agree that if you can't gig to promote a CD (or at very least try to sell copies at the gigs) the chances of actaully moving product is small. Naturally, you can try to promote your music via the web......but I do not personally know anyone who has has much success doing that.

I've always felt that one must determine what they want the end result to be....and then design a plan to achieve that goal.

If you want to sell yourself as an artist....then the plan requires gigging, etc. etc. If you want to sell CDs to the public, then the finished recorded product must be able to compete will commercial releases the public is conditioned to....thus you need a quality recording, proper mastering, etc.

If you write/record because you have music in you that must come out (and yur can't or choose not to gig) .....perhaps you can utilize less equipment, choose not to master.....and simply compile the music for your own satisfaction and the pleasure of family and friends.

Only you can determne what you plan for the end result to achieve.
 
justinm. said:
when you are a nobody with no fans, no TV or radio play, and not lucky enough to have the right connections, you'll find out real quick just how (almost) useless those sites are. I only have demos posted, but how much does it matter? Problem: The public still won't hear your music on those sites unless they actually click on them, and when you are a complete unknown...you may as well be invisible.

myspace
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This is the wake up call. making the music/product is just the first step. Getting heard is as hard if not harder than making that music. Simply posting on myspace isn't enough. You need promotion. Whether it be gigging, blogging, radio/internet radio airplay etc. It's constant work and why big artists/labels have PR companies to keep them at the forefront of peoples attention.

It can be done as a solo, unsigned artist even without gigging but it takes a plan, some kind of budget and a lot of hard work and you don't just do it once and forget about it or people forget about you, once you start, you have to keep aggressively pushing yourself forward
 
freakin epic thread. I know this a forum about recording and all that, but it's nice at least for me to always stand back and forget about how i can't afford a vintech pre or a Royer or whatever, and just look at the long view about the big big picture...we're all just trying to get our music out there. That mention of the sebadoh track with the kid - I was thinking the same thing! I quit a band that was starting to get noticed because I needed to have a full-on gameplan for music. I have made very little money with music and most shows I've played, the payment was in the form of free drinks. I spent an average of 3hrs every night on myspace and bebo networking, emailing venues, bothering agents, etc. what bristol posse says is so true about that. i was out there in people's faces nonstop, and even then it was hard. i believe one key, like has already been said, is make it as easy as possible for people to get at your stuff. I'm essentially a songwriter on my own now since my band didn't work out. Someone recently asked me what I've been listening to and I said, "i just got this one record." they responded with "you mean a cd? wow that's old school." I'm actually one of those peeps like you guys who loves getting the artwork and the full intent (would I know as much as I do about Joe Satriani if I hadn't just bought surfing with the alien as a remaster cd vs. on itunes?). But this little conversation about cd's just reminded me that this is our current reality; it's a reality of ultra-instant gratification; iphones, i-this, i-that. when i finally have my demo songs together, i'll be looking into every digital avenue i can exploit. still learning about that, though...
 
u can record as much as u want, if u don't gig to promote or have direct contact to a&r ,or a big plus in your bank account to buy your own stuff you wont sell or get recognized..... its that simple
 
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