EQ help needed - Masking

[philbagg]

Hello people

I've been doing a lot of mixing of my own bands stuff (using PT8 LE, Waves +
Sonalksis plug-ins) over the past few months. With all the various techniques
etc. for mixing, the one main thing I have a problem with is EQ.

I know the basics of what to cut/boost if something sounds a certain way,
but the problem I have is masking. I try to start with making the individual
instruments sounds more natural (if need be), and then start hi-pass filtering
anything that might have low-end content to leave room for bass, kick and
toms.

But the kind of problems I run up against are the beater of the kick isn't
audible in a mix, so I try to reduce around the 5kHz area in the offending
instruments but then they sound like they're missing it etc. Do you reckon I'm
using too much EQ where it's not needed, or not using it enough to get
satisfactory results?

I'm getting a lot better but I still don't feel satisfied by my mixes and it's not
compression or FX or anything, just EQ. I listen to commercial songs and
everything is perfectly audible and sounds effortless. I want that sound!

Any help?

Cheers,
Phil

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I'm hardly a professional here, but a few comments:

1.) "start by making instruments sound more natural." This is potentially dangerous. If an instrument was recorded will in the first place, you shouldn't need to do anything to it to make it sound more natural. Furthermore, if you're EQ'ing them while solo'd you're probably adding problems into the mix, rather than improving it.

2.) "hi-passing everything that might have low end content." Again, be careful. Before you pull out your high pass, do a rough mix as is and just listen to it. Do you hear any problems? You might not. If you don't, then while it certainly doesn't hurt to try a high pass, don't necessarily assume you have to. These days I'm more likely to, say, roll a db or two off my rhythm guitars below 60-100hz (depending on what sounds right) rather than actually start lopping everything off below that bottom end. When in doubt, the less EQ you can get away with, the better.

3.) "can't hear the beater in the kick." A few questions. If you solo the kick, does the beater sound fine, but it's only when other instruments are in the picture you have problems? If not, then the problem isn't EQ, it's just you're not capturing enough of the beater to begin with. If it DOES sound find solo'd though, things get a little trickier - you now have to figure out WHY it doesn't come through. You mention 5k - have you determined that's where the preponderance of energy from the beater is? If you're not sure, try running a peak EQ there with a very narrow Q, and boost the crap out of it (say, Q of 15 or so, with a +6-10db boost, more maybe, but pay attention to your meters). Move it around until the beater starts really jumping out - that's the fgrequency range you need to be concerned with. I'd wouldn't worry so much about the rest of the instrumentation - I'm not sure what else you're referring to, but odds are it's the bass guitar and the kick that are fighting for this space, since they're both panned to the same area and have similar frequency responses. You could try a 1-2dB boost at the peak of the beater with a wider Q, coupled with maybe a 2-3db cut in the bass around there, to see if that helps. Alternately, the problem could be that there's too much of some OTHER frequency that's causing problems - say, the midrange. Kicks tend to get scooped pretty heavily these days, and if you have a really middy kick, then the "wood"-y part of the tone will be dominating the way the kick fits into the mix. Cutting this back and compensating by raising the overall volume a hair might bring more attention to the click and the depth of the drum. Finally, I'd want to give a look to what your compression settings are like - if you have a VERY short attack, then the beater sound is going to be getting compressed as hard as everything else. Lengthening your attack will potentially allow the beater to poke out a little more, while compressing the rumble - this tends to work well if you're working with low-tuned guitars and bass.

Anyway, this is probably becoming apparent as I continue to ramble, but it's worth noting that in contemporary music, the kick drum is something that rarely sounds "natural" anymore, so starting with a natural sound might not be the way to go.

 

[RAMI]

I continue to ramble

No man, that was awesome.

 

[TeyshaBlue]

Anyway, this is probably becoming apparent as I continue to ramble, but it's worth noting that in contemporary music, the kick drum is something that rarely sounds "natural" anymore, so starting with a natural sound might not be the way to go.

No shit, man. Some of my better mixes involved a cheapo Tama kit. It was virtually disposable. But, it was my studio kit because I could almost build whatever sound I wanted to come out of it thru compression and eq. The mixed drum trax would, in no way, resemble what was happening in the drum room.

 

[philbagg]

Those were some great tips Drew, I appreciate it.

Just a few points. I know when I said "make things sound more natural" I was
kind of misleading. What I meant was like a few dB boost/cut if, let's say,
the guitars are a bit dull I might do a low Q boost of 1 or 2dB on the high mids.
And I generally don't EQ while soloing (unless I'm trying to fix a major problem
like one frequency really jumping out).

Although your second point on hi-pass filtering is a little new to me. The band
are a hard rock-type band (distorted rhythm guitars playing a big part) and
for my guitars I'm using a Marshall 150w valvestate amp. I just thought it'd do
a lot of favours to the kick/bass if I HPF everything below let's say 80-100hz
from the rhythm guitars (cabinet rumble etc.) I'll try your tips however and
see if it improves the situation.

Oh and 5k was just a rough number in my head I generally do sweep to find
the sweet spot for the beater. And my compression settings are usually set
to a slower attack to tighten it up, yet making sure that the compressor isn't
preventing the beater from coming through. I like the quick kicks for
up-tempo songs
Other than that, I generally cut around 200-500hz to pull some wool out of
the kick and put a slight boost around 80-100hz (bass taking over the sub)
and HPF to about 60. Then I put a slight boost around the 5k area (finding
the sweet spot first ) just to get some more attack.

But those things I mentioned were just examples, I do find other problems
like those but I'm just looking for general tips to help me along

Cheers,
Phil

 

[DrewPeterson7]

See, I usually have the exact opposite problem - unless I'm very careful not to overdo it with mic position, my guitars often seem too bright to me, which is kind of ironic in that a Rectifier (especially a Roadster) ought to be a heck of a lot darker than a Valvestate. Rather than boosting, maybe screw with your mic position? Also, what are you micing with? I'd been using a SM57 or an i5 for ages, but I picked up an el cheapo Nady RSM-4 that for some reason absolutely LOVES my Rectifier, and mates well with either of those aforementioned mics to smooth out/fill in the low end...

Problem is, when I'm just demoing out ideas, I'm usually WAY too lazy to bother to get the phase relationship right.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

No shit, man. Some of my better mixes involved a cheapo Tama kit. It was virtually disposable. But, it was my studio kit because I could almost build whatever sound I wanted to come out of it thru compression and eq. The mixed drum trax would, in no way, resemble what was happening in the drum room.

That's hilarious, man. Do you have any trouble with the overheads...? Or do you mostly close-mic shit anyway?

 

[philbagg]

See, I usually have the exact opposite problem - unless I'm very careful not to overdo it with mic position, my guitars often seem too bright to me, which is kind of ironic in that a Rectifier (especially a Roadster) ought to be a heck of a lot darker than a Valvestate. Rather than boosting, maybe screw with your mic position? Also, what are you micing with? I'd been using a SM57 or an i5 for ages, but I picked up an el cheapo Nady RSM-4 that for some reason absolutely LOVES my Rectifier, and mates well with either of those aforementioned mics to smooth out/fill in the low end...

Problem is, when I'm just demoing out ideas, I'm usually WAY too lazy to bother to get the phase relationship right.

You said what I was thinkin Drew I usually mic a few inches away from the
center of the cone. I'm gonna screw around with it more towards the center
of the cone anyway because I find if I try to boost the high mids, I'm bringing
up some nasty windy fuzz sound with it. Maybe get some new strings too,
they've been on for months and like you, I get lazy with my own demos

I'm using a 57 yeah but I was thinking of borrowing my mates condenser,
(some M-Audio mic but it's not bad) and testing it out. Maybe blend the two?

Pre-production pre-production pre-production eh?

Cheers,
Phil

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Pre-production pre-production pre-production eh?

Ain't that the truth.

I generally tend to shoot within an inch of the edge of the cone, up on the grill, but we're playing through completely differently voiced amps so I really don't know how well that would compare for your rig. But yeah, by and large the least amount of EQ I have to add to a guitar in the mix (especially the high end, which is just a proper clusterfuck of "fizz" vs. "not-dullness" that gives me nightmares just thinking about) the better my final recorded tones seem to sound to me.

That Nady is a thing of beauty on my Rectifier too. I don't know if I can recommend it to you, despite it's stupidly cheap price, with a clear conscience (partly because our amps are voiced entirely differently, and partly because since buying it I've learned most metal musicians won't touch a Nady anything with a 10-foot-pole since they're the filthy cocksuckers who turned all the Bay Area clubs into a pay-to-play racket), but my experience has been it both fills out a SM57 nicely on its' own, and just slays for lead guitar used solo.

 

[philbagg]

a proper clusterfuck of "fizz" vs. "not-dullness" that gives me nightmares just thinking about)

Well said Drew, well said

It's a catch 22 so far for me. One or the other, and theyre both shit

That Nady is a thing of beauty on my Rectifier too. I don't know if I can recommend it to you, despite it's stupidly cheap price, with a clear conscience (partly because our amps are voiced entirely differently, and partly because since buying it I've learned most metal musicians won't touch a Nady anything with a 10-foot-pole since they're the filthy cocksuckers who turned all the Bay Area clubs into a pay-to-play racket), but my experience has been it both fills out a SM57 nicely on its' own, and just slays for lead guitar used solo.

I'll be talking equipment and figures with you when I get some funds

 

[TeyshaBlue]

That's hilarious, man. Do you have any trouble with the overheads...? Or do you mostly close-mic shit anyway?

Nah...the OH's were never much of a prob. I had one nice, tight drum room.
Typically, I would close mic everything + 2 OH, then place a AKG C-14 about a foot away, positioned between the kick and snare switched to cardiod. Depending on the project, I'd mic the beater side of the kick or the inside...occasionally both.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Well said Drew, well said

It's a catch 22 so far for me. One or the other, and theyre both shit



I'll be talking equipment and figures with you when I get some funds

Don't bother, there's a ton of guys who absolutely wipe the floor with me on the subject of gear knowledge. Listen to them - they actually know what they're talking about.

Nah...the OH's were never much of a prob. I had one nice, tight drum room.
Typically, I would close mic everything + 2 OH, then place a AKG C-14 about a foot away, positioned between the kick and snare switched to cardiod. Depending on the project, I'd mic the beater side of the kick or the inside...occasionally both.

Ahh, that's explain it, I'm a bit jealous.

Not that this is exactly a new realization for me D) but someone posted this Porcupine Tree vid, them in the studio recording their latest, to the board I run, and it's really amazing just how much like an album the drums-in-the-room-on-camcorder already sounds like. Part of it is a great drummer and a great kit, but a lot of it is he's just in a damned good room:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huCBXUAmle0&

Besides, it's a great excuse to post a Porcupine Tree video.