Recording the band as a whole?

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Jouni

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Heeellllllyyyeah!...

This is more a studio-related than a home-recording question.

Lets presume there is a band that's recording a full-length album and are promised a deal to market and spread it by some company, but they are on their own while producing the album. Their drummer is also completely handicapped concerning clicktracks. :D

So, I'm thinking it would be a lot less hassle to go to a studio, and record the songs in a big room, all playing simultaniously. Less studio hours to pay for, and better "swing" than the method of all playing by themselves to a clicktrack??

Am I right or wrong there?

Also, what other concerns there would be than the un-avoidable bleed from an instrument to another??
Could a good recording engineer reduce that bleed to an insignificant one?

Playing all together "live" would also help out some rhythm-changes that are tricky against a clicktrack...
 
Your results may vary but a good engineer could handle this. You can still have your instruments isolated and play "together". If you don't mind headphones then you could get pretty much complete isolation. If headphones are a problem, then some gobos or smart use of mic placement could make the bleed minimal and completely workable. IMHO
 
Plenty of albums have been recorded that way. It is what is called a "live studio" recording. It is easier to do if you have a big studio, because just because you are all playing at the same time does not necessarily mean that you are all in the same room. If you have a B, C, etc. room, you can get excellent isolation. If that option isn't available, mic selection and placement, gobos, etc., can reduce the issues with bleed. We often believe, in the digital age, that we have to use all of this EQ and FX, compression, etc., on individual tracks, but plenty of recordings were done in the 50's and 60's using *2* mics, and the world did not come to an end. Isolation is convenient, *not* necessary.
I have done some perfectly good live studio recordings of a band in one small room with 2 Neumann KM184's. It's a retro-rockabilly band, so we recorded it just like they would have in 1954. Guitar too loud? move the mic, move the amp, turn the guitar down, point the mic differently. It took some time to get the balance right, and when we did, I wrote down every mic position, preamp setting, amp setting, and took pictures of the room, so I could repeat it, right down to the volume and tone settings on the guitars. It's like a trip through history. I found that when I went back to 21st century recording, the experience I gained that way made me a much better tracking engineer.-Richie
 
^^^ There is sound advice above.

I'd opt for the best of both worlds . . . go to the studio and record it live there.
 
I usually insist on that...I use Isolation cabnets for guitars...Bass goes in throgh a sansamp direct...and drums in the tracking room...with a scratch vocal in the control area.

Most of the time the vocal gets redone and lead guitar gets reworked.
 
Having plenty of experience playing with a drummer that is click-track-averse, I'd say tracking live is not only the best way, but the only way.

That being said, we tried some live recording in the crappy jam space we had available and the room acoustics just killed it, so the studio is probably a good idea.

If you've never heard it, check out La Villa Strangiato by Rush. That's a very long and complicated piece with lots of goofy timing, and it was tracked live.

Best of luck
Matt
 
If the band is tight...and doesn't fall appart in the studio...it's all workable.
 
Jouni said:
Am I right or wrong there?
Click to expand...

you're dead wrong. Actually, I'm kidding. Live recordings are done all the time and are in my opinion, some of the best capture of group dynamic you can ever hope for.


To be honest with you, the click track is only mildly important and really serves 2 purposes in the studio: 1) to help the engineer later on with session grid work and editing and 2) to give the band a rough tempo reference. So no, you don't need a click track, but I strongly advise that you sit down with your band and work out the tempos before hand. At least use a click track as a "count off". It is not humanly possible to remember an exact tempo down to a T. Our body's fluctuate, so does our memory, so the click track just serves to remind.


In terms of bleed, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'd hope your engineer is good enough to minimize this with gobos and placement.


At the end of the day, if you guys practice the songs in and out, and have a studio and engineer that are capable of capturing a live perfomance, then you should be ok.
 
Richard Monroe said:
Plenty of albums have been recorded that way. It is what is called a "live studio" recording. It is easier to do if you have a big studio, because just because you are all playing at the same time does not necessarily mean that you are all in the same room. If you have a B, C, etc. room, you can get excellent isolation. If that option isn't available, mic selection and placement, gobos, etc., can reduce the issues with bleed. We often believe, in the digital age, that we have to use all of this EQ and FX, compression, etc., on individual tracks, but plenty of recordings were done in the 50's and 60's using *2* mics, and the world did not come to an end. Isolation is convenient, *not* necessary.
I have done some perfectly good live studio recordings of a band in one small room with 2 Neumann KM184's. It's a retro-rockabilly band, so we recorded it just like they would have in 1954. Guitar too loud? move the mic, move the amp, turn the guitar down, point the mic differently. It took some time to get the balance right, and when we did, I wrote down every mic position, preamp setting, amp setting, and took pictures of the room, so I could repeat it, right down to the volume and tone settings on the guitars. It's like a trip through history. I found that when I went back to 21st century recording, the experience I gained that way made me a much better tracking engineer.-Richie
Click to expand...

I'm consigned to recording my own stuff one track at a time, but the only other projects I undertake are done this way, with basic tracks done live in one room. Partly, it's because it's all I will spare time for. Partly it's because it's the only type of recording I have any interest in doing for other people.

For example, the last project where I recorded someone other than me was this kind of project. Two young guys (15 and 13 when we started the first set of tracks), a guitarist and a drummer. Later they were joined by a college-age bass player. We laid down the basic tracks (guitar, drums and bass) live to 1" 8 track with only a few mikes. The guitarist added vocals later along with a couple of delightfully weird synth tracks. We mixed the tracks to an M-79 2-track.

The drummer insisted that he did NOT want a detailed, close drum sound, so I couldn't even do one overhead... only a mike out in front of the kick. So I ended up with only two or sometimes three mikes out in the center space and the mixing was done by choice of directional pattern and moving mikes to get the right balance between the three instruments.

I'll tell you one thing, there is a quality to those tracks that I rarely hear in ANY recording... the unmistakeable signature of loud rhythm tracks played and recorded live in one room, no headphones, everyone seeing and hearing each other properly (right in the gut!) just like a practice or a gig. Run straight into the 3M 8 track with no noise reduction and high but not outrageous recording levels.

I sold the tape machine, because I wanted something more portable to enable recording in more locations. At present I only have a Yamaha SIAB, which is what I use for most of my tracking and what I would use on other projects. I may get another tape machine, and this time it will be one that is portable.

My studio room is treated enough to make a recording space that doesn't sound bad, but then it doesn't have much of a sound to it at all, just the live dry sound of a space with some bass trapping, some ceiling treatment and plenty of Studio Traps to create a live, dry recording subspace.

Tape machine or SIAB, if I take on another project, I will recommend that we record live in a bigger, better sounding place with that portable rig. I can control the sound of a decent sounding room if I bring some Studio Traps along.

Cheers,

Otto
 
Last edited:
Jouni said:
Heeellllllyyyeah!...

This is more a studio-related than a home-recording question.

Lets presume there is a band that's recording a full-length album and are promised a deal to market and spread it by some company, but they are on their own while producing the album. Their drummer is also completely handicapped concerning clicktracks. :D

So, I'm thinking it would be a lot less hassle to go to a studio, and record the songs in a big room, all playing simultaniously. Less studio hours to pay for, and better "swing" than the method of all playing by themselves to a clicktrack??

Am I right or wrong there?

Also, what other concerns there would be than the un-avoidable bleed from an instrument to another??
Could a good recording engineer reduce that bleed to an insignificant one?

Playing all together "live" would also help out some rhythm-changes that are tricky against a clicktrack...
Click to expand...

you could 100% remove all bleed issues by DI'ing the guitars into amp sims, and sending them to everyone's phones

then, after tracking everything together, reamp the DI's prior to mixing
 
Not a bad idea really...using isolation cabinets has worked well for me...but Bass even in the real studios nowdays is direct in 95% of the time...alot of studios havent had a bass amp in them for years.
 
I see what you're talking about as the ultimate way of recording.

No headphones - hate them, hate them, hate them, they make drummers throw away the first 30 dB. I won't use them anymore.

I hate drummers playing with clicks - it's just not right!

Lots of bleed - love it! It doesn't bother you on stage does it? As long as it's the same song it should be a problem and actually sounds good.

There's basically two types of recording:
1) using the studio as an instrument itself and multi-tracking and overdubbing
2) recording an event

There's nothing more exciting than everybody finishing a cut and then being able to hear it back instantly.
 
dintymoore said:
I see what you're talking about as the ultimate way of recording.

No headphones - hate them, hate them, hate them, they make drummers throw away the first 30 dB. I won't use them anymore.

I hate drummers playing with clicks - it's just not right!

Lots of bleed - love it! It doesn't bother you on stage does it? As long as it's the same song it should be a problem and actually sounds good.

There's basically two types of recording:
1) using the studio as an instrument itself and multi-tracking and overdubbing
2) recording an event

There's nothing more exciting than everybody finishing a cut and then being able to hear it back instantly.
Click to expand...

Theres nothing wrong with that approach...as long as everyone can get it perfect in a few takes...that doesnt happen for me alot.
 
darrin_h2000 said:
Theres nothing wrong with that approach...as long as everyone can get it perfect in a few takes...that doesnt happen for me alot.
Click to expand...


Me neither - it's an ideal that unfortunately doesn't happen much.

Also, it's easier to capture a bluegrass band that way than say a Steely Dan type band, so it really depends on the music genre.

I get the feeling that back in the 1940's everybody was playing so much that they could do this better too. I think the average live playing level isn't as good as it was back then. There's way less live playing nowadays because of competition from other media like big screen tv's, video games and computer recording.
 
darrin_h2000 said:
Theres nothing wrong with that approach...as long as everyone can get it perfect in a few takes...that doesnt happen for me alot.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... well, I don't know that perfect is really necessary, but if a group can't play live and get a good take, they are not ready to record with me. I don't have time for anything less. Of course, I help support my family with policy work, not recording, so I get to be picky. :)

Cheers,

Otto
 
just recorded horrid ordeal live...

was my first time recording a band live, and did it due to all the reasons above stated. and mostly due to the drummer never having tracked before not wanting to try it his first experience . so we went barebones and hit 9 mics on the drums, put up thick comforters around all the walls in their practice space. hung two on each side of drums to cancel out the bass and guitar cabs on each side as much as possible. ran the 9 drum mics into my old mixer, and a shure sm58 on bass cab into mixer, into line one of the mbox, and line two was a sennheiser cond guitar mic on the guitar cab. and suprisingly how barebones we did it, we got practically no guitar on the bass and drum tracks and vice versa! since we have analog mixer we mixed down the drums and bass on the board nicely since each drum wouldnt have its own tracks and got it pretty good, then mixed guitar on its mbox channel solo. after those two main tracks were done, despite some takes per song to have everything perfect on drums then brought the bassist in to my studio and tracked all the songs to add his distortion on top of the clean low end we only got from the live recording. worked out all the kinks with guitar tracks the same, put it all into the mix and i am now in process of doing their vocals for them now. simple workin mans way of doing it, but we are all extremely pleased with what we got since we took time to mix and use the right mics, etc. and i have to say despite doing it live it will be my best full band recording yet! i prefer to track, but this ultimately worke4d out best for them guys and we got it right. hope this helps getting a bottom feeders prospective cuz not everyone has the best means and just makes it work somehow!
 
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