I Cry for You - Advice needed

[JonPaulP]

Hey everyone,

Here's a very rough clip of a song I'm working on right now. It's a ballad and I'm learning how to stylistically sound more "pop" vocally (as opposed to my classical training). Any feedback and tips on the pop style would be appreciated.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8010286

 

[jeffmaher]

A couple things:

You're singing very close to the mic..which gives good effect, but takes discipline and practice to eliminate pops and essing.

There is not much diffrence between pop and classical composition...or composition generally, across genres.

Great classical composition maintains interest with effective melody, thematic development, dynamics, surprise and comfort in equal doses, as does pop....and just about any aesthetically pleasing music.

For example, the opening piano chords are undeveloped, the same , for a long time. The first theme is the vocal line. Then it goes along like that for a long time...to long. You might want to add harmony, rhythmic invention, change/modulation, counter-theme....something to change texture and maintain interest. Pop is more groove-dependent. If you got a cooker happening, you can lay on it without developement for a long time. There is no groove in the clip.....so you're gonna have to build something...in steps, to take it somewhere. Some nice classical string quartet-ish harmony and counterpoint would work nicely! And that's your forte. Take it to a rockier place...guitars. Celine Dion's arranger/composers are masters of the idiom I believe you're approaching. Think the theme from the Titanic movie, "I Will Go On" or something. You can get a good dose of schoolin' listening to a few of those types of productions. They all have things in-common. Open books, waiting for you to read them.

 

[JonPaulP]

Thanks a lot for the comments, Jeff! I was planning on adding some strings in the first verse then mixing in a hip-hop beat in the chorus.

Heheh, but I guess I should've been a little more specific. I'm wondering if the vocals sound "pop" enough since that's what I'm practicing right now.

 

[jeffmaher]

OH!

Well, I can hear a little of Aaron Neville happenin'. And he's a pop guy.


I thought you were a trained classical instrumentalist.

Advice: check out Aaron.....and see if you can cop his relaxed style.

 

[rayc]

You have an interesting voice.
Be careful of going too Aaron Neville - his vocals can sound neutered/neo castrati as well as whiney.
You'll need to devlop your mic/recording technique - are you using a pop/spit screen? Have you considered putting a pencil across the mic to split 'plosives?
Do a search of the forums to get some ideas on how to manage these things.
Close micing is intimate, rich, emotional and difficult.
What mic are you using?
Have you tried a de esser on the vocal line post recordng?
I understand re 'pop" vocals v classically trained voice - an entirely diff set of rules & disciplines but in both the voice that communicates emotion best is the winner.
Please post more.

 

[JonPaulP]

OH!

Well, I can hear a little of Aaron Neville happenin'. And he's a pop guy.


I thought you were a trained classical instrumentalist.

Advice: check out Aaron.....and see if you can cop his relaxed style.

Have any recommendations for any particular Aaron Neville song to check out?

You have an interesting voice.
Be careful of going too Aaron Neville - his vocals can sound neutered/neo castrati as well as whiney.
You'll need to devlop your mic/recording technique - are you using a pop/spit screen? Have you considered putting a pencil across the mic to split 'plosives?
Do a search of the forums to get some ideas on how to manage these things.
Close micing is intimate, rich, emotional and difficult.
What mic are you using?
Have you tried a de esser on the vocal line post recordng?
I understand re 'pop" vocals v classically trained voice - an entirely diff set of rules & disciplines but in both the voice that communicates emotion best is the winner.
Please post more.

I hope "interesting" is a good thing, haha.

Yes, I'm using a pop screen with a Marshall MXL condenser microphone. How should I stick the pencil in there? Should I tape it?

I usually sing closed-mic on everything (like maybe an inch away) since I don't want to capture the room reverb, but I guess the plosives and esses were more apparent in this one because of the words. Should I turn my head away from the microphone in situations like this? I haven't had a need to use a de esser yet, but I guess I'll try it for this one if there are any problems with the final mix.

 

[JonPaulP]

Alright, so I decided to try and see how it would sound like if I sang a little farther from the microphone (probably about 7 inches away).

Here's quick test clip:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8010286

Does microphone sound a little better? It does actually sound a little different, like a crisper sound?

 

[jeffmaher]

The first tune:

Why do the instruments in the recording...including the piano,...have a wavering sound?? Is that mp3 artifact? Or are all the patches run through an amplitude or freq modulation or flange or something? It sounds OK on the strings...mimicing clusters of fiddles playing together; but a flat sound on the piano would be nice....it's a grand piano patch, right? The real ones don't sound like they're Leslied!!

Second listen:

Sounds like there's a mosh happening between the strings and the fast pinging , sweeping delay. The two are close in frequency, I think, and sound like they're having a wave interference thing goin' on. Some combo of two or more tracks is not working??? Might be a good idea to run pairs of soloed tracks to nail it down??

One other thing later on: There are piano strikes, several, that completely smother the vox for a half second. If you like the fit of the mix, you might want to apply a little selective volume enveloping or compression to keep the piano serving the vocal at those points?

The first part of the vocal is great. The second half falls off a bit. Not as locked-in with pitch, breathing; a little over-emphasized emo; and pronounciation quirks. I love the opening vox, though. Killer!!!

I can't tell the diff between the recordings with no reference or music playing.

 

[JonPaulP]

The first tune:

Why do the instruments in the recording...including the piano,...have a wavering sound?? Is that mp3 artifact? Or are all the patches run through an amplitude or freq modulation or flange or something? It sounds OK on the strings...mimicing clusters of fiddles playing together; but a flat sound on the piano would be nice....it's a grand piano patch, right? The real ones don't sound like they're Leslied!!

Second listen:

Sounds like there's a mosh happening between the strings and the fast pinging , sweeping delay. The two are close in frequency, I think, and sound like they're having a wave interference thing goin' on. Some combo of two or more tracks is not working??? Might be a good idea to run pairs of soloed tracks to nail it down??

One other thing later on: There are piano strikes, several, that completely smother the vox for a half second. If you like the fit of the mix, you might want to apply a little selective volume enveloping or compression to keep the piano serving the vocal at those points?

The first part of the vocal is great. The second half falls off a bit. Not as locked-in with pitch, breathing; a little over-emphasized emo; and pronounciation quirks. I love the opening vox, though. Killer!!!

I can't tell the diff between the recordings with no reference or music playing.

Hey Jeff, thanks a lot for taking a listen again! I think the wavering could be that since it was just quickie test, I didn't record with headphones and the microphone picked up the sound from the speakers.

Thanks for pointing out the piano strikes; I didn't catch that one! I'll adjust the velocity of the key strikes in the Cubase midi editor.

I'm glad you like the first part of the vocal. It really did make a difference moving away from the microphone a little bit. It produces the sort of sound I hear in other recordings as opposed to a boomy, muddy sound. I'm starting to regret close-micing with my previous songs, hah. Yeah, the second part wasn't very good. Which are the pronounciation quirks? I'll try to remember them when I record the vocals again.

I kept the original file in the first post up, but I'm going to delete it now, now that I know what I did wrong with it. Thanks again for the feedback; you and rayc were very helpful!

 

[jeffmaher]

Sometimes it sounds as though you're singing with a generic European accent. Which isn't a bad thing...Julio Iglasius, for example. But the word, "you"...that last word in the song, for instance, would sound a lot better held for four full beats, instead of being dropped real fast. It would add bigness and emo to the main theme and lyrical hook. And it also makes it sound like English is actually your second language. Is it? I'm guessing mebbe you're a Gaul? [Jean Paul is a clue :^)

Also, did you check your midi tracks in piano roll view? At 1:07, for example, it sounds like the piano is off the grid, maybe, a little too much. I think it tries to hit the anticipation on one in the next measure..but something isn't jiving there. Hard to tell with no rhythm thing.

Yes...the first part of the vocal is really, really good.

Is that also re-sung from the first version??? I don't hear the plosives, I think. Or at least I didn't notice them this time....

 

[JonPaulP]

Sometimes it sounds as though you're singing with a generic European accent. Which isn't a bad thing...Julio Iglasius, for example. But the word, "you"...that last word in the song, for instance, would sound a lot better held for four full beats, instead of being dropped real fast. It would add bigness and emo to the main theme and lyrical hook. And it also makes it sound like English is actually your second language. Is it? I'm guessing mebbe you're a Gaul? [Jean Paul is a clue :^)

Also, did you check your midi tracks in piano roll view? At 1:07, for example, it sounds like the piano is off the grid, maybe, a little too much. I think it tries to hit the anticipation on one in the next measure..but something isn't jiving there. Hard to tell with no rhythm thing.

Yes...the first part of the vocal is really, really good.

Is that also re-sung from the first version??? I don't hear the plosives, I think. Or at least I didn't notice them this time....

Funny that you observed that, I was actually listening to another song of mine a few weeks ago and noticed that I kinda sounded French/Canadian in a few select words. I'm actually an American, haha. The classical-crossover genre, which is my forte, is popular in Europe so that's a plus for me and I'm also a fan of Enrique Iglesias' style.

I sang the "you" short in the last sentence 'cause the chorus, which is more fast-paced than the verses, starts immediately after, but I haven't recorded that part yet. You'll hear it when I post a more complete version later.

I listened to 1:07...thanks for noticing that, I thought I did notice a little delay. I'll check out the piano roll. I'm not really liking the instrumentation of that section right now, so I'll probably end up changing the chords a little.

Yeah, I resung the whole thing (if I had known that I was gonna come up with usable material, I would've closed the window which was making all that noise in the background, haha). I remember for the first version, I was closer and a little to the side of the microphone...maybe that's why the plosives were picked up.

I did notice that the white noise from the microphone fades in and out between the vocals, which I assume is because of the compression plug-in. Any way to make that less noticeable? I'm wondering if it has something to do with me being a little farther away from the microphone.

 

[jeffmaher]

What I do, when necessary, is snip the dead parts of the track between vocal lines and use fades in and out...being really careful to solo the result to make sure I got all those opening breaths. I think there's a one button function for doing that automatically. "Generate silence" or something?? I do it manually...not a lot of time. That way there's no floor noise for the compression to 'raise'.
The further away, the higher y' gotta make the mic...so background gets bigger. I have a routine. Shut the doors and windows; unplug the fridge; shut off the phone; make sure no one's around; close myself in the little room with the blankets, boxes, cushions, foam and rubber...and sweat. I can still hear an occasional truck going by in my records.....perfect stereo...in one side , out the other. Keeps it real. :^)

 

[mattdee1]

Not really my style but you're very good at what you're doing.

The only beef I wanted to bring up has already been mentioned: the obvious "cuts" in the vocal track. As Jeff pointed out, you can eliminate/minimize this artifact with some artful editing. But in this particular case, if I were you I'd re-track the vox for a better SNR before attempting the editing route. Will save some headaches.

 

[Chili]

I think I listened to your latest version. I think you've got wayyy too much compression on your vocals. It is picking the lip smacking and pasty mouth, and clicks, etc.... Also, I hear the mic or preamp getting pushed. A raspiness on louder parts, not associated with your voice. Maybe it's soundclick's mp3 player.

I suggest you try a limiter instead of compression. Yeah, it's the same thing but a limiter doesn't kick in until a higher threshold and hits with a harder ratio. It will allow you to have all the dynamics you want until you hit a certain point, then it starts working. You won't be amplifying all the little background noises and mouth noises.

looking forward to hearing more.

 

[JonPaulP]

What I do, when necessary, is snip the dead parts of the track between vocal lines and use fades in and out...being really careful to solo the result to make sure I got all those opening breaths. I think there's a one button function for doing that automatically. "Generate silence" or something?? I do it manually...not a lot of time. That way there's no floor noise for the compression to 'raise'.

Oh yeah, that's right! That's exactly what I do when I start editing. I usually have two tracks for the vocals and interchange the vocal parts to make the breaths fade nicely. Glad to know you do the same.

Not really my style but you're very good at what you're doing.

The only beef I wanted to bring up has already been mentioned: the obvious "cuts" in the vocal track. As Jeff pointed out, you can eliminate/minimize this artifact with some artful editing. But in this particular case, if I were you I'd re-track the vox for a better SNR before attempting the editing route. Will save some headaches.

Thanks Matt! Yes, I agree...I'm going to re-record the vox.

I think I listened to your latest version. I think you've got wayyy too much compression on your vocals. It is picking the lip smacking and pasty mouth, and clicks, etc.... Also, I hear the mic or preamp getting pushed. A raspiness on louder parts, not associated with your voice. Maybe it's soundclick's mp3 player.

I suggest you try a limiter instead of compression. Yeah, it's the same thing but a limiter doesn't kick in until a higher threshold and hits with a harder ratio. It will allow you to have all the dynamics you want until you hit a certain point, then it starts working. You won't be amplifying all the little background noises and mouth noises.

looking forward to hearing more.

Hey Chili! I applied the compression filter twice (in addition to the analog compressor), so you are spot on! I remember reading that most recent pop songs use a lot of compression, so I was experimenting with that. If I were to fade in and out the dead parts, would it sound ok or is the compression still too much?

 

[joeym]

What a great voice you've got, Jon! (but I've told you that already....)
I must say your mixing skills have greatly improved. My only nit here is with the highs on your voice. They could do with some cutting so they don't bite. If you've got the delay or reverb on a send, try to cut the highs out there. Would love to hear the whole thing.

Joey

 

[Chili]

I remember reading that most recent pop songs use a lot of compression, so I was experimenting with that. If I were to fade in and out the dead parts, would it sound ok or is the compression still too much?

If I remember correctly, you're using Cubase. You can edit the dead parts between vocal lines to remove the background noise (double click to edit the part, highlight section in between words, rightclick>Process>Silence), but that won't help with the extraneous noises that occur while you're singing; lip smacks, teeth clicks, etc. So yeah, i think the compression would still be too much.

I remember doing similar experimenting a while ago and noticed all the ugly sounds coming through. I recently switched over to using a limiter in lieu of any compression and I like it a lot better. Still keeps the vocal performance more consistent, but doesn't bring out the ugly noises.

I'm curious what others think about all this.

 

[jeffmaher]

Another way to skin that cat! [I avoid doing that because I'm not sure how the cheap stuff I use might degrade the signal...]

 

[JonPaulP]

What a great voice you've got, Jon! (but I've told you that already....)
I must say your mixing skills have greatly improved. My only nit here is with the highs on your voice. They could do with some cutting so they don't bite. If you've got the delay or reverb on a send, try to cut the highs out there. Would love to hear the whole thing.

Joey

Thanks a lot Joey! I'll try to post the whole thing soon.

If I remember correctly, you're using Cubase. You can edit the dead parts between vocal lines to remove the background noise (double click to edit the part, highlight section in between words, rightclick>Process>Silence), but that won't help with the extraneous noises that occur while you're singing; lip smacks, teeth clicks, etc. So yeah, i think the compression would still be too much.

I remember doing similar experimenting a while ago and noticed all the ugly sounds coming through. I recently switched over to using a limiter in lieu of any compression and I like it a lot better. Still keeps the vocal performance more consistent, but doesn't bring out the ugly noises.

I'm curious what others think about all this.

Thanks Chili. Yes, I'm using Cubase, thanks for letting me know about >Process>Silence. I turned the speakers up and I did hear those little lip noises, I guess the compression is too much for a ballad with only one instrument.

 

[Chili]

It's good that you are experimenting. you'll learn what works best for you. Still use compression if needed. just not as much.

As always, you're such a talented singer. love to listen to your stuff.