tc4b
Yeah I been drinkin, SO!?
Always looking for new music (new to me I mean), I went and listened to samples of these. Always nice to hear something different, and I mean different. Thanks!
- Status
Always looking for new music (new to me I mean), I went and listened to samples of these. Always nice to hear something different, and I mean different. Thanks!
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
George, you know I like you and respect your knowledge and all that stuff, but the above sentence doesn't sound all that different from those who drive you crazy. Remove most American pop from any era and you remove pretty much *all* music composed and recorded in the past 100 years (that's been heard by more than 5 people, anyway). Were it not for American music over the years, there would be no ragtime, jazz, blues, jump, rock, zydeco, funk, theater, bebop, dixieland, bluegrass, R&B, folk, hip hop, country, or alt or fusion versions of any of them. They simply wouldn't exist. Period.
No Gershwin. No Ellington. No Rogers & Hammerstein. No Quincy Jones. No Ray Charles. No Dylan. No Hank Williams Sr. No Armstrong. No Waits. No Sinatra. No Dexter Gordon or Charlie Parker. No Muddy Waters or B. B. King. No Pickett. No RZA. No Scott Joplin. No Guthrie. No Little Richard. No Johnny Cash. Shall I keep going? Jelly Roll Morton? Burt Bacherach? Mac Rebenak?
Now maybe you don't like *any* of that stuff. That's fine, it's all personal taste. But to dismiss the entire century of American pop music as being bad sounds even more narrow-minded than the neophytes who think that everything is all about the Beatles, Led Zepplin and Pink Floyd (none of whom are American, BTW, though most of their music is). There have been more musical originals and greats in the last century than in the previous three centuries put together, with virtually every main musical thread traceable back to American popular and roots music.
One doesn't have to enjoy listening to the musical stylings of Dexter Gordon or Wilson Pickett or Bob Dylan (Crash cart! Stat!! This man has no heartbeat!) to respect and appreciate what they have done for and with music, and to dismiss 20th century popular music in it's entirety is the ultimate in hubris, much like thinking that it's all either Beatles or Elvis - both second-order derivative acts about as original as generic cereal brands - is the ultimate in ignorance.
G.
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UserCP/Unsubscribe
That's what I did.
Edit: My dislike of this thread has nothing to do with musical style preferences though
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darrin_h2000
Banned
This thread is making me more and more cranky the more I read some of the responses. Yet for some odd reason, I can't get away from it.
SOMEONE HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!
Fuck it. I am gonna go listen to some Merzbow just to clear my head and wash my ears.
Oh, BTW I hate Bruce Springsteen. His "music" just irritates me.
Same with Peter Gabriel.
Can't stand most of The Beatles.
I find Black Sabbath laughable, and Led Zeppelin self-indulgent.
Snoop Dogg, P-diddy, et al... can't believe they make millions on that nonsense.
Pop... is that music?
In fact, I hate 90% of the music that has topped the charts of any era, and/or has gone gold/platinum/whatever.
Most american (pop, and by that I mean what is and has been on radio, MTV, VH1, etc) music sucks, and pretty much all of russian music reeks of mothballs AND sucks.
BTW, after Merzbow, maybe I'll listen to some Fennez.
You just sometimes have to cut your losses and just say..."I dont get the appeal of that...but it sells for some reason" and go ahead and record with a smile...because they are paying you and we all love money.
I do agree with you...whenever I want to self indulge Ill watch Britney Spears videos and while the sound is down, play Led Zeppelin CDs.
noisewreck
New member
Hahahaha! That was good man
noisewreck
New member
Agree 100%!
Yup, agree with that too. And that was exactly the point of my post. Hope that finally drove it home with some for whom "digital" is the holy grail, for those that "analog" sounds warm, for whom that samplers and synths are "not instruments", for those that if it doesn't have geetars it ain't music, for those... need I go on?
Oooo, you didn't go there did 'ya? OK, we're on. Although I'll forgive you, because in America we are so closed off from the rest of the world that we think nothing exists outside of America, and had it not been for american music, there would be no music in the world at all... But music ain't Levi's Jeans my friend
...OK, we're on. For brevity's sake, I'll list 3 singers/artists/bands per european country. You can do further searches if you feel like it.
France
Charles Aznavour, Edith Piaf, Mirelle Mathieu (very decidedly French, "chanson" singers... I can go on, but I'll let you go on that journey).
Italy
Adriano Celentano (he has also been in some really funny movies back in the 70's, such as "Bluff"), Albano, Bocelli (maybe you might want to claim him as American too?), OK... since he may be claimed as an American... Umberto Tozzi... and more.
Russia
Alla Pugacheva, Diskoteka Avaria, Leonid Kobzon (ugh, can't stand him, but whatever, if we're listing Sinatra, then Kobzon is a fair game
)Icland
Bjork, Quarashi, Sigur Ros.
Germany
Rammstein, Das Ich (cult following in the US, but pretty well-known in Germany, including movie soundtracks to their credit), Kraftwerk
I can go on... it's unfortunate, because the artists I've listed (at least most of them) are pretty well known not only in their own country, but throughout Europe and Asia. In America, we are truly closed off from the rest of the world which then of course makes us think that had it not been fo US, the world would be missing a lot of good stuff, (which is true to some extent, but doesn't mean that the rest of the world didn't produce equally great stuff either).
BTW, did you know that the color TV technology was first developed by two Armenian brothers working in Moscow?
Not gonna argue with the fact. Although I can easily say that the rest of the world could care less for dixie, bluegrass and country. Unless they are an english speaking country... (see a connection here)?
Love Gershwin, Ellington, don't know Rogers & Hammerstein, love Qunicy Jones, Ray Charles, Dylan, don't know Hank Williams, absolutely love Armstrong, don't know Waits, couldn't care less for Sinatra, meh on Gordon, love Charlie Parker.... so on...
Oh, you forgot Benny Goodman... how could you forget Benny man?
And what's your point? I can provide a similarly impressive list of composers, musicians, and bands from around the world, who are not influenced by Americanism
And of course, since we are so American-centric, we don't "get" them... or at least the general public doesn't. Unless of course they put a hip-hop beat behind their stuff I disagree with you on this, but whatever. The quantity is mainly due to recording technology not due to amount of talent. And that same recording technology has allowed a lot of garbage and noise to be produced in 20th century as the Internet now does for the 21st century... My point is... in about 300 years, I highly doubt that people will remember 10% of the "greats" of today
Agreed
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noisewreck
New member
Glad to be of service
But I wouldn't call Merzbow's stuff "music" I love noise though, so totally works for me. I even find it relaxing although most people just run away!
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I agree for the most part, though I think you and I would slightly differ on just where the fuzzy border is between music and "pleasant noise"Yup, agree with that too. And that was exactly the point of my post. Hope that finally drove it home with some for whom "digital" is the holy grail, for those that "analog" sounds warm, for whom that samplers and synths are "not instruments", for those that if it doesn't have geetars it ain't music, for those... need I go on?
For the record, I was a huge fan of Tangerine Dream back in the day. I wore holes in my European inport copy of "Zeit". But I wouldn't call it "music", simply because it doesn't contain any of the common properties that define music, such as rhythm and beat, harmony, melody, key, chord progression. That doesn't mean that sounds *have to* have those to be pleasant to listen to (see: bubbling brook), but I think that semantically and technically it's not music - even though it may be "music to my ears". I know you'll disagree with that, and I'm OK with that too. It's really just semantics
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And yet look at how much Levis sell for in MoscowOooo, you didn't go there did 'ya? OK, we're on. Although I'll forgive you, because in America we are so closed off from the rest of the world that we think nothing exists outside of America, and had it not been for american music, there would be no music in the world at all... But music ain't Levi's Jeans my friend
. You make a good point, George, that there is more in this world than American music. But not much in comparison, especially when seen under the light of *influence*.You're right, America generally tends to be a huge version of New York or Texas, in that we tend to not care what happens elsewhere the way we should. With some folks it borders on xenophobia, and I am not proud of our country in that way. The fact that Leonard Cohen has a following in America only among musicians and music hobbyists, simply because he's Canadian, is just a crying shame.
This is why I'm forced to watch/listen to BBC World News, BBC radio and DW news in order to find out what's actually happening on this planet, because US news services just don't give what's happening outside of the US or it's immediate interests the proper diligence ("ABC World News" my fat ass!
) But no matter how you slice it, American roots and American popular music have permeated the world scene and influenced the world's music styles of the 20th and 21st century far deeper and stronger than that of any other country or culture. Christ, I have listened to hip hop done in almost any and every language I can think of, from Farsi and Russian (I mixed some Russian hip hop a few years ago!) to Portugese and Sczechuan Chinese, You go to Berlin, Paris and Amsterdam and you'll trip across more blues, jazz and folkie clubs and cafes than you'll find in freakin' Memphis, St. Louis or Chicago.
Tell me one contemporary foreign genre that does not have it's roots in American music that has that kind of planetary penetration. You won't find many Muslim chanson singers, but you'll hear plenty of Arabian blues, jazz, rock and hip hop artists. And before you say "world music", I dare you to define just what that means in terms of an actual specific musical genre.
Most evidence to the contrary. Perhaps not so much bluegrass - though it has relatives in things like skipple and contemporary Irish folk. And the dixieland jazz style is quite influential with many German jazz bands. And find me a country that doesn't listen to Patsy Cline and I'll show you North Korea
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Oooh, don;t get me started there. I like Benny as a stupendous clarinet player, but as a band leader he just doesn't get into my blood at all.
Just like, as you more or less pointed out earlier, we today don't remember most of the composers of earlier centuries.My point is... in about 300 years, I highly doubt that people will remember 10% of the "greats" of today
But there are two logistic factors; the size of the world population and the transmission of music allowed by broadcast and recording technology that has by the very physics and nature of it multiplied the number of quality artists available and accessible today. You're right; by 2209 probably mo one outside of music historians will have ever heard of Jethro Tull, or for that matter, Tangerine Dream, and even then, probably only a small percentage of them will be that good at their jobs to have "discovered" them in the archives. But if even only 5% of today's artists survive in the general psyche 200 yeas from now, because of the sheer number of them (because of the sheer population size), that'll still be a larger number than the Bachs, Beethovens and Stravinskys that have survived from their time.
Now, just how do you describe the David Hasselhoff phenom in Germany? Tell me how that makes any sense. Jerry Lewis in France I can understand, but Hasselhoff? Yeesh.
G.
noisewreck
New member
Probably, probably not. I call noise "noise" not music. It can be rhythmic, a'la Winterkalte or an amorphous evolving stuff a'la Merzbow and some of Fennez, but it's still noise
Whether one likes to listen to it or not, that's a different matter.Yes, I know what you mean. I feel lucky that I can get my information from Russian, Armenian and Greek channels on Satellite TV. It allows me to get a more "fair and balanced" view of the rest of the world.This is why I'm forced to watch/listen to BBC World News, BBC radio and DW news in order to find out what's actually happening on this planet, because US news services just don't give what's happening outside of the US or it's immediate interests the proper diligence ("ABC World News" my fat ass!
Can't argue with that fact. ARGH when I listen to some russian or armenian dude rapping, almost makes me wanna get a machine gun and put some holes in the m-fr's head! It sounds friggin ridiculous. I mean, of all things rap? (OK, so I am biased
) However, US notwithstanding, there is some cross-influencing in Europe and south america. In Italy for example there is a strong Argentinian Tango influence in their pop music, many russian singers are influenced by french chanson, etc. However, you are right, the influence is not as pervacive as the American influcence. But just because there is a McDonald's in Moscow, that doesn't necessarily make McDonald's gourmet food (ugh... sorry, food analogies were your domain )It doesn't. Tsk, tsk, those Germans...Now, just how do you describe the David Hasselhoff phenom in Germany? Tell me how that makes any sense.
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
Sorry for quoting a post from the first page - I really DID read the whole thread, but this post was the one that struck me as the place where I could add the most to the discussion.
I think the line I've bolded above is, for me, the real advantage of digital over analog. Almost everyone has a computer - you can go out, spend a couple hundred on mics and interfaces and monitors, and have a setup that will offer you much of the flexibility of a "real" studio. My setup (a Dell desktop, a Presonus Firepod, a handful of various mics, a pre or two, and some cheapo Behringer monitors) is pretty entry-level, but be that as it may it's also "good enough" that if my recordings suck, it's not the fault of the medium, but rather the room I work in or, more likely, the dude twisting knobs.
I think your talk about piracy "ruining" music has less to do with digital tracking and mixing and the wide availability of high speed internet access, and isn't really applicable here.
And, finally, here's my real question - how much of "that sound" was the result of tracking to tape rather than disc, and how much of it was just an excellent acoustic space, a damned good engineer, and some really kickass mics and pres? I'm honestly curious how much "different" that sound would be if you pulled out the tape reel and in its place inserted my Presonus unit. Same mics, same pres, same engineer... This is just a hunch, and I'll freely admit I've never worked with anything other than digital, but I do suspect that the vast majority of any difference in sound isn't due to printing to 1" tape rather than a hard drive, but rather a well-tuned room and some seriously sweet-sounding pres and mics. I mean, comparing what I do with a Presonus pre and an AKG to what your friend's dad was doing with almost mythically good outboard gear doesn't strike me as an apples to apples comparison.
I think the line I've bolded above is, for me, the real advantage of digital over analog. Almost everyone has a computer - you can go out, spend a couple hundred on mics and interfaces and monitors, and have a setup that will offer you much of the flexibility of a "real" studio. My setup (a Dell desktop, a Presonus Firepod, a handful of various mics, a pre or two, and some cheapo Behringer monitors) is pretty entry-level, but be that as it may it's also "good enough" that if my recordings suck, it's not the fault of the medium, but rather the room I work in or, more likely, the dude twisting knobs.
I think your talk about piracy "ruining" music has less to do with digital tracking and mixing and the wide availability of high speed internet access, and isn't really applicable here.
And, finally, here's my real question - how much of "that sound" was the result of tracking to tape rather than disc, and how much of it was just an excellent acoustic space, a damned good engineer, and some really kickass mics and pres? I'm honestly curious how much "different" that sound would be if you pulled out the tape reel and in its place inserted my Presonus unit. Same mics, same pres, same engineer... This is just a hunch, and I'll freely admit I've never worked with anything other than digital, but I do suspect that the vast majority of any difference in sound isn't due to printing to 1" tape rather than a hard drive, but rather a well-tuned room and some seriously sweet-sounding pres and mics. I mean, comparing what I do with a Presonus pre and an AKG to what your friend's dad was doing with almost mythically good outboard gear doesn't strike me as an apples to apples comparison.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Everyone is free to choose their favorite music…but I’m not clear why some people need to deeply hate all the other forms of music in order to “elevate/justify” their own music choices?
You know…it IS possible for people to like everything from the cheesiest Country Pop all the way to the ambient “noise” you seem to prefer.
I actually like ambient music, but I also gotta have my Zep, and I can’t do without some Neil Young every once in awhile, and then of course, Blues are always a big part of my music palette…but then some days I’m in the mood for some world music, like maybe from Senegal or South Africa or some Indian ragas….and then I’ll toss on an Elvis CD just to “round out my day”.
I think in order to like many other forms of music, you have to accept each genre at face value, rather than attempt to compare it to one or two genres that happen to appeal to you…at this point in your life.
The big pleasure I’ve gotten out of music has come through its diversity, and my tastes have expanded over the years so that now days, my music library is about 10 times more diverse than it was back in my teens/twenties.
While I know some people who sorta’ fell into one or two genre “ruts” (often in their late teens or early twenties when they were in need of identity) and then they pretty much remained there for the rest of their lives…many people are more open-minded and tend to embrace the wonderful music variety we have around us.
YMMV….
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YES!
Nice to see this thread get back to something worthwhile.
Worthwhile relative to the original thread subject and recording art/science in general.
Todzilla
New member
I'm remembering back in the day when a nice 24 track Otari was $30K+ and a nice mixing deck $100K+. You can get it cheaper nowadays, but it's generally in bad shape, requiring maintenance that is increasingly difficult to find.
I guess you never edited with tape and a razorblade...lol.
Oh yes. I saw some real masters (or should I say "reel masters") who could do it as fast and cleanly as you and I can on a DAW.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yeah...but look at the cost of some high-end digital system hardware...plus all the software and add-on plugs...
...it's a lot more than your basic Gateway PC and copy of Cakewalk Sonar.
But yeah...back in the day, high-end analog was not cheap!
It still isn't...the current production stuff.
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
Room - analog
Mics - analog
Pres - analog
I guess that's three more for analog.
You smart-ass.
I guess the way I see it is this - bigger picture, the guy running the board/computer is, past a point, probably the single biggest influence on the finished product, followed next by the quality of the outboard gear being used. I'm not going to say that "there's no difference between analog or digital" or try to argue for one over the other on an absolute scale (I prefer digital because it's where I started so the workflow is very natural for me, and because for the caliber of gear I can afford, digital is way cheaper than analog. That's me personally, though, and not an industry wide truism).
What I WILL say, however, is that if one of the producers I admire - say, Steven Wilson, of Porcupine Tree - dropped by my place unannounced and said, "hey, I want to cut an album, mind if I use your bedroom studio?" then while I'm sure it'd sound better if he did it at a "pro" venue, the end result would still be pretty damned listenable, based on the guy at the controls. And, if he instead took my computer and interface, brought it into an excellent-sounding acoustic-treated room, swapped my monitors for a better set, and ran a seriously nice collection of mics into equally good pres, then I suspect even on my fairly budget gear the results would be pretty damned excellent.
Its a question of diminishing returns - if everything else in the signal chain is good; good room, good engineer, good instruments/instrumentalists, good mics, good pres, and good monitors, then I suspect that the differences in "sound quality" between analog and digital are slight. And, if the rest of the signal chain isn't good, then arguing for one over the other based on "sound" is pretty much a moot point, I suspect.
Then again, I could be dead wrong, as I'm probably the first wave of the generation that grew up never knowing anything other than digital. I'm speculating here, and it's possible I don't have the faintest idea what I'm talking about.
But, I honestly suspect that most amateur engineers/mixers like myself would be better off if they spent less time worrying about broad questions like this, and more time working on learning to get the most of the tools they have.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
Everyone is free to choose their favorite music…but I’m not clear why some people need to deeply hate all the other forms of music in order to “elevate/justify” their own music choices?
You know…it IS possible for people to like everything from the cheesiest Country Pop all the way to the ambient “noise” you seem to prefer.
I actually like ambient music, but I also gotta have my Zep, and I can’t do without some Neil Young every once in awhile, and then of course, Blues are always a big part of my music palette…but then some days I’m in the mood for some world music, like maybe from Senegal or South Africa or some Indian ragas….and then I’ll toss on an Elvis CD just to “round out my day”.
I think in order to like many other forms of music, you have to accept each genre at face value, rather than attempt to compare it to one or two genres that happen to appeal to you…at this point in your life.
The big pleasure I’ve gotten out of music has come through its diversity, and my tastes have expanded over the years so that now days, my music library is about 10 times more diverse than it was back in my teens/twenties.
While I know some people who sorta’ fell into one or two genre “ruts” (often in their late teens or early twenties when they were in need of identity) and then they pretty much remained there for the rest of their lives…many people are more open-minded and tend to embrace the wonderful music variety we have around us.
YMMV….
Ditto +1,000,000 (stupid 10 character requirement)
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
no doubt.Then again, I could be dead wrong, as I'm probably the first wave of the generation that grew up never knowing anything other than digital. I'm speculating here, and it's possible I don't have the faintest idea what I'm talking about.
I'm often shocked by how little many 'engineers' and soundmen have trained their ears. They know all the technical end of it and do everything by the book which they have memorized.
But it's really more about your ears and that only comes from listening a lot. Any one that wants to be a good mixer needs to invest in a reference quality listening system.
You can't know what to listen for (especially the subtle stuff) if you haven't actually heard it.
noisewreck
New member
Everyone is free to choose their favorite music…but I’m not clear why some people need to deeply hate all the other forms of music in order to “elevate/justify” their own music choices?
You know…it IS possible for people to like everything from the cheesiest Country Pop all the way to the ambient “noise” you seem to prefer.
I actually like ambient music, but I also gotta have my Zep, and I can’t do without some Neil Young every once in awhile, and then of course, Blues are always a big part of my music palette…but then some days I’m in the mood for some world music, like maybe from Senegal or South Africa or some Indian ragas….and then I’ll toss on an Elvis CD just to “round out my day”.
I think in order to like many other forms of music, you have to accept each genre at face value, rather than attempt to compare it to one or two genres that happen to appeal to you…at this point in your life.
The big pleasure I’ve gotten out of music has come through its diversity, and my tastes have expanded over the years so that now days, my music library is about 10 times more diverse than it was back in my teens/twenties.
While I know some people who sorta’ fell into one or two genre “ruts” (often in their late teens or early twenties when they were in need of identity) and then they pretty much remained there for the rest of their lives…many people are more open-minded and tend to embrace the wonderful music variety we have around us.
YMMV….
Great post Miroslav! I wanted to give you some points, but apparently I need to spread the love some more before I can
I agree with you 100% with all the points you made. Same with Glen's. I was just trying to make a point of how ridiculous the whole "digital is better than analog", "guitar is a real instrument but the kazoo isn't", "I want to feel the tape vs. waveform displays", and other similar ridiculous comperisons that are simply stupid and manufactured in people's minds by making similarly stupid and ridiculous statements in my post that apparently confused some of you fine folk
Peace, and cheers.
N
NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
The guy that started this thread oughtta be arrested!
- Status