I've got a really stupid idea (4 x 4x12 cabinets, 2 amps!)

[Steve Henningsgard]

I’m in a metal band and we’re down one guitar player. It’s looking like we’ll have only one guitar player for a while, and so we’ve been trying to find ways to thicken and even out our sound. Right now, I’ve got a Rivera Knucklehead KR100 and two 4x12 cabinets, and our bassist has an 8x10 and a 4x10 with a Mesa Boogie tube/solid state amp (it’s a monster!).

The problem is, we generally play clubs with less-than-stellar PA’s, and so as it is, everyone on one side of the venue hears only the bass, and everyone on the other side hears only the guitar. In addition, when I had only one cab, I couldn’t hear anything but cymbals and the monster bass rig, so having a full-stack made it easier to hear myself. Plus, we’re in a metal band, and more = better from an aesthetic and “practical” point of view (louder = better and whatnot).

My question is: would getting another two cabs, and some sort of amp running out of the FX loop or “recording out” on my Rivera, work? I was thinking that either a regular power-amp, or possibly a bass amp, would work? Essentially, it would look like this:

 

[hmmm]

I have a quick question, are you planning on using the cabs with the PA system or just by themselves to produce the sound?
Also you'll have to keep in mind that the extra amp will add distortion to the sound you get coming from the cabs that are wired up to that one. But as far as I'm aware that should give you more texture to the songs.

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

I have a quick question, are you planning on using the cabs with the PA system or just by themselves to produce the sound?
Also you'll have to keep in mind that the extra amp will add distortion to the sound you get coming from the cabs that are wired up to that one. But as far as I'm aware that should give you more texture to the songs.

I generally play venues where the PA couldn't do much more than the vocals, and maybe the kick drum, so this will be stand-alone from the PA. A different texture/character would actually be a definite plus if I'm going for a thicker sound (assuming the character/texture added is good!)

 

[Farview]

That's just about how everyone does it. YOu would come out of the effects loop or slave out (recording out would be good as long as there isn't some sort of 'cabinet simulator' on it) into the power section of another head or into a tube power amp. Marshall and Boogie both make really nice sounding tube power amps for just this sort of thing.

Now, if you are playing clubs with PA systems that can't keep up with what you have, adding more isn't the answer. You will get to the point where the PA can't get the drums and vocals above the stage volume and you will never be able to get enough monitor to hear yourself.

The best way to get the stage volume under control and be able to hear everything (without going to in-ears) is to put the amps on the sides of the stage facing across the stage. That way, everyone can hear everything and you won't have a problem hearing yourself when you go to the other side of the stage and you won't need guitar in the wedges. If you can take everything out of the monitors except vocals, you can sing better.

The drummer can hear everyone without having to get everything pumped into his monitors.

You will also not be blowing all that sound out into the audience forcing the sound guy to compete with the stage volume. That's why guitars will be all grainy and high endy coming out of the PA, it's suplementing the mud being thrown off the stage. Anyone who is off-axis to the stage will just hear grainy crap, anyone too close to the stage will just hear the undefined mud coming from the stage and monitors.

 

[hmmm]

Right, that's what I was going to say do because if it went through the PA it wouldn't have made much difference, but stand alone it'll give you more volume.
If you can I'd give it a go first so if you know any other guitarists see if you can borrow their stuff and wire it up like you're planning for a quick go before splashing out all that cash.
You could always fit in effects pedals between the 2 amps to get the sound you want aswell, so you could have a relatively clean sound from the first one and a distorted, reverby one from the other for example.

EDIT: Farview has some good points that I forgot, the main one being make sure everything can still be heard.

 

[Outlaws]

If you want to thicken your sound, don't use two 412's on one amp and buy two more 412s. Get a good preamp (for the price of 2 412s you can probably get a good one), run that to the power amp, then use 1 of your 412 for each. Now for the thickening part...get a EH Polychorus and use the double track feature. Place the two rigs as far apart as possible. That should be do the trick.

As for your band drowning you out, you will either need to tell them to keep it the fuck down, or you need to work on the EQ range of your guitar verses the EQ range of the bass rig. A 100w knucklehead should be plenty. If you don't figure out the EQ, it will be a almost never ending cycle of one of you drowning out the other...because I have a feeling you are probably tuned down, so the frequency range of the guitar and bass are overlapping even more than normal.

 

[stevieb]

Forget metal and become a power trio.

 

[SHEPPARDB.]

I’m in a metal band and we’re down one guitar player. It’s looking like we’ll have only one guitar player for a while, and so we’ve been trying to find ways to thicken and even out our sound. Right now, I’ve got a Rivera Knucklehead KR100 and two 4x12 cabinets, and our bassist has an 8x10 and a 4x10 with a Mesa Boogie tube/solid state amp (it’s a monster!).

The problem is, we generally play clubs with less-than-stellar PA’s, and so as it is, everyone on one side of the venue hears only the bass, and everyone on the other side hears only the guitar. In addition, when I had only one cab, I couldn’t hear anything but cymbals and the monster bass rig, so having a full-stack made it easier to hear myself. Plus, we’re in a metal band, and more = better from an aesthetic and “practical” point of view (louder = better and whatnot).

My question is: would getting another two cabs, and some sort of amp running out of the FX loop or “recording out” on my Rivera, work? I was thinking that either a regular power-amp, or possibly a bass amp, would work? Essentially, it would look like this:

I think the best solution to the problem youre having would be to get everyone on the same page as far as band dynamics and then start putting together your own P.A. system.
If you cant hear yourself in a live situation with a Knucklehead and one 412 then you are most likely cranking the gain to the point where clarity ends and lost in the mix begins.
Anyway, good luck and keep them horns up.

 

[mcmetal]

Buy yourself a longer speaker cord and just use one 412 on each side and tell your bass player to turn down.When i first started playing out under the same conditions i found that a full stack was too much and i had trouble hearing the drums.I went with a half stack and could hear the drums much better.If your bass player turns down you'll be able to hear the drums better.

As far as turning the amps sideways i don't like it when playing a smaller place.Even with a noise gate i had problems with unwanted feedback cause i was too close to my amp and when your on a small stage you just can't get far enough away.I like my amp behind me.I can turn around into it when i want some feedback on some notes during leads.I prefer the old school style of creating a bit of a backline and turning the amps towards the drummer on a slight angle.

I played plenty of shows with just kick drums and vocals miced and you just gotta work on your sound the best you can.A more balanced mix with your stage volume where everyone can hear each other will go a long way.If you're standing next to the drums and can't hear nothing but cymbals then something is wrong or someone else is a volume whore.

Adding more stage volume will only make things worse for you and the poor sound guy who's doing the best he can just to get the vocals above the rest of the band.Even with just vocals and the kick drums miced,all that stage volume will still bleed into the rest of the PA and muddy up the overall sound.Use one cab on each side to even up the sound for your audience.

 

[ggunn]

+1 on the concept that the way to help a struggling PA is NOT to drive up the stage volume.

 

[Zaphod B]

+1 on the concept that the way to help a struggling PA is NOT to drive up the stage volume.

Agreed.

If you need to spread the sound across the stage, you can simply split your cabs on either side of the stage. If the more-is-better aesthetic is important, dummy 4X12 cabs under the active ones will give you the visual you want - it'll look like a full stack on either side.

I don't know what kind of FX you're using on the guitar rig, but a touch of LFO effect (flanger, phaser, or chorus) and maybe a little short delay can do wonders to thicken things up.

If the drummer is getting in your ears too much, consider some kind of isolator on stage - a plexiglass divider or something like that.

 

[lpdeluxe]

It sure sounds like everybody's way too loud

As a general rule, the lower the stage volume, the better the musicians can interact...unless your idea of "interaction" is "I can turn up louder than you!" If I had two guitar cabinets in your situation, I'd put one where the bass player and drummer could hear it, and the other where the house could hear it. I played bass for a long time with an Ampeg B100R on a stand, with the speaker aimed toward the drummer, and a line out to the PA. That way we could get the dancers' butts shaking without blowing out our hearing.

 

[Carny1122]

Steve, I played in a metal band for 4 years...my brother (guitarist) and our other guitarist both used 1/2 stacks, then the one quit, and instead of doing a full stack on one side or the other, he just did one cab per side. It really does help to fill it out. I know what you mean about playing venues with less-than-stellar PA's, but you've gotta work with it. We always wanted to be LOUD, but sometimes it's better to turn down a little bit and have less output coming from your Rivera to be able to manage the guitar, bass, drum, and vocal mix better. Plus, if your vocalist is screaming most of the time, that means that you can still be very reasonably loud without being deafening, you know? Compromise is best!

 

[Tony-bobs]

my first thought would be loading and unloading all that crap. I would tell the bassist to get rid of the extra 410, stick with one 412, and work on getting things EQ'd well. spend a whole practice with one song and figure out where each of you needs to sit in the mix and get there. there's no reason for everyone to have all those cabs besides compensation... check you sound not only from right in front of the amp but 20 feet out or so as well, maybe have someone there with you who knows what to listen for and will be honest with you guys. once you get the EQ and Volume sounding good and managable, shows will go alot better and you will only need to use the PA for vox and kick.

 

[Farview]

Just so you know, if you have 16 ohm cabinets, you can run 4 of them off of one amp set to 4 ohms.

 

[Tony-bobs]

Just so you know, if you have 16 ohm cabinets, you can run 4 of them off of one amp set to 4 ohms.

and put 25 watts into each cab, that's only 6 watts per speaker, kinda wasteful wouldn't you think? as a general rule, speakers double in sound with 10x the power i.e. 1w>10W or 10w>100W so your getting the same volume per speaker as if you ran a 5w epi valve jr. through a 412, a much cheaper option, but not very aesthetically pleasing for the genre...

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Thanks for the great, informed responses guys! I've actually thought of running 2 cabs, one on each side, and having 2 empty cabs with lights in 'em for an effect. I might still do that...

Related question: I've got a mediocre Marshall 1960A cab (newer one without v30's), and a Laney 4x12 of some sort... is there a great way of upgrading the speakers/electronics/cabinets themselves to make 'em sound better? Not even necessarily cost-effective ones (although that'd be nice!)

 

[Zaphod B]

Thanks for the great, informed responses guys! I've actually thought of running 2 cabs, one on each side, and having 2 empty cabs with lights in 'em for an effect. I might still do that...

Related question: I've got a mediocre Marshall 1960A cab (newer one without v30's), and a Laney 4x12 of some sort... is there a great way of upgrading the speakers/electronics/cabinets themselves to make 'em sound better? Not even necessarily cost-effective ones (although that'd be nice!)

1. Different speakers
2. Cabinet bracing - side-to-side, top-to-bottom, front-to-back. The cheaper cabs are built like shit and need a little reinforcement to keep from being so lively.

 

[Roguetitan]

+1 on the concept that the way to help a struggling PA is NOT to drive up the stage volume.

Make that +1000! You will have plenty of stage dynamics at 85 to 90 db. You are defeating the purpose of using sound reinforcement if your stage volume is any louder than that.
you will deliver better overall sound to the audience turning down the stage volume and turning up through the mains.

 

[Farview]

and put 25 watts into each cab, that's only 6 watts per speaker, kinda wasteful wouldn't you think? as a general rule, speakers double in sound with 10x the power i.e. 1w>10W or 10w>100W so your getting the same volume per speaker as if you ran a 5w epi valve jr. through a 412, a much cheaper option, but not very aesthetically pleasing for the genre...

But you will have more surface area pushing the air around. It will end up being just as loud with more coverage. Volume isn't the issue, coverage is. The rivera should be able to rip peoples faces off of their skull, if he can't hear it, it's because the cabinets aren't covering the stage with sound, not because it isn't loud enough.