What volume do you record at?

[LouieV702]

I'm usually recording vocals all at +7.1 db or +7.9, with the gain knob about 1 or 2 O'clock.Than during the mix, I turn them down to -0 or below on Pro Tools to blend in nice with the other instruments! What is your guys preference?

 

[thajeremy]

are you sure you are recording at +7??? I usually track instruments around -18 dB and vox a little hotter like around -12....

A lot of people, including myself in the beginning thought that you track as hot as you can without clipping....this is bad practice....dont do it....I have found that tracking around line level (-18 dB) works better for me....and that is what I suggest to people who ask me...if you record as hot as you say, you have to turn your tracks WAY down in PT....also, tracking with a lower signal lets you keep your faders higher while mixing...if you notice, you loose resolution as your fader gets lower....while the fader is around 0, a 1/4 " movement of the fader might be 3 dB.....as you lower the fader....a 1/4" movement might be 15 or 20 dB which makes it harder to make fine adjustments....if you find yourself having to mix with your faders really low....try inserting the Trim plug found in the "other" option in the plugin menu, then you can lower the signal pre fader and be able to make finer adjustments with the main fader....

 

[LouieV702]

are you sure you are recording at +7??? I usually track instruments around -18 dB and vox a little hotter like around -12..

wow....have I been doing this wrong all this time???? Someone taught me I should mix down Vol. levels not Mix Up Vol. levels (some sort of golden rule?) But I will give that a try.

if you record as hot as you say, you have to turn your tracks WAY down in PT

Yeah my vocals are usually in the range of -7 to -18 db depending on the instrumental track!

try inserting the Trim plug found in the "other" option in the plugin menu, then you can lower the signal pre fader and be able to make finer adjustments with the main fader....

How I do it is, inserting a master track at the end...than throughout the entire song I'm mixing down volumes....and making sure the master volume is not clippin(also giving like 3 to 5 db of headroom)!
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So my new question is Am I doing this backwards or it's okay if it works for me type of deal I hate the ask "what is the right way" as many guru's here would say there is no "right way". But any feedback would be appreciated.
LV

 

[MessianicDreams]

I'm usually recording vocals all at +7.1 db or +7.9,

When you say that, are you describing where the fader is at on the particular track?


It doesn't matter where the gain knob is - that will vary depending on the sensitivity of the mic - use your meters instead. You shuld really aim for the majority of things bouncing around the -16 to -18dB mark. I too tend to track vocals slightly louder, around -14 to -12dB.


I'm never too exact with it - to be honest I just eyeball it - but that's the area I aim for!

 

[LouieV702]

When you say that, are you describing where the fader is at on the particular track?

Yes on the individual track in Pro Tools, not on the gain knob on the digi!

bouncing around the -16 to -18dB mark. I too tend to track vocals slightly louder, around -14 to -12dB.

How are you tracking at -14 to-12 db and still bouncing at -16 to -18 db overall mix??? I'm tracking at +7 on pro tools and bouncing around -3 to -5 overall mix. But the vocals are between -7 to -18 db mixed down.I'm Confused

 

[guitar486]

You should google "gain staging in pro tools" and do some learning. thajeremy has it right, it's typically the best practice to track at around -18dbfs on the pro tools meter. This leaves headroom plugins and summing all of your tracks to a bus/master, while not being too low with regards to signal to noise ratio.

 

[LouieV702]

Sorry for my ignorance guys, I'm just curious, and a sucker for Recording Engineering knowledge!
Thanks for the replys

 

[mattr]

I don't quite understand what you're trying to achieve. Unless Pro Tools is completely different to every other DAW out there (which it isn't, unless you have one of the fancy ones with the software controls linked to gain controls on preamps/inputs), the volume within the software makes no difference to the signal that is recorded. Putting the software channel fader up during recording then pulling it down after does absolutely nothing.

 

[LouieV702]

Putting the software channel fader up during recording then pulling it down after does absolutely nothing.

are you serious? When I pull the fader up to +7 db I can hear a mouse jack off in my headphones. When I pull the fader down -7db I can't hear LA Traffic! (This is while pre-recording, With the record button on but not actually recording). I'm just trying to justify the way I record with some pro's on here. If the gain on my digi interface is set (for example) 12'oclock(and for anybody who is reading this and not familiar with converting time with decibels than 12'oclock is 0 Db), than what should my fader in pro tools be set at? Reading from the others reply's, there saying in the software to record at -12 or -14 dbs, but too me that seems extremely low for vocals and in order for the artist to hear themselves in the headphones I have to crank up the headphone gain and lower the instrumental track!!!(I record mostly RnB singers and Rap artist) So please clarify your opinion! This could lead to technical information as far as preamps ad converters...etc...but basically all I wanted is information on how YOU(finger pointed) set your interface gain and fader level on your software? That's it! It seems to me people are shy on posting there recording techniques because there scared of getting flame or bashed!

I have been searching on gain staging...and finding some interesting things. I've been recording for atleast 3 years now and never was satisfied with my mixes, vocals seem to overpower the rest of the track, sometimes the instrumental tracks would overpower my vocals, but as far as the clarity on instrumental tracks, the color of vocals or reverb and compression, EQ have been on point in my opinion and others who have listen to my tracks(artist and listeners). But they do not have the ears as you and I have and so when something doesn't feel right on the mix, rather it be vocal treatment, instrumental arrangement, volume levels, we are our biggest critics.
And so I come to this forum, on hoping some guru's could show me the right direction to a good mix that I've been looking for! Maybe all I need is volume control? That's enough rambling from me, I need some input, Shall I post a mp3 in the mp3 clinic with vocals recorded at high levels so you can see what I mean?

P.S. Sorry for the long reply, it's just more lyrical response means more lyrical feedback! LOL

 

[mattr]

Oh sorry, you mean for monitoring? I was worried for a moment you thought it made some difference to the sound of the recording Apologies for the misunderstanding.

But if you can't hear the vocals, rather than cranking the vocal monitoring track up, can't you bring the instrumentals down?

For monitoring I just set up monitor mixes from inputs using the onboard digital mixer stuff of my Motu interface(s). I generally keep everything quite organised and a faders-only mix going on while tracking, so its quick to set up a good stereo mix from within Sonar to mix with live inputs for the headphone mixes. If the instrumentals end up too loud then I just pull down the stereo bus in Sonar that is being fed to the headphone mixes.


As for preamp gain - whatever is necessary. As stated, try and keep things on and around the -18dbfs mark.

 

[LouieV702]

Oh sorry, you mean for monitoring? I was worried for a moment you thought it made some difference to the sound of the recording Apologies for the misunderstanding.

It's okay bro, no apologies needed!

But if you can't hear the vocals, rather than cranking the vocal monitoring track up, can't you bring the instrumentals down

That's what I have been doing recently. And the mixes are better than before but not up to par(so my conclusion is my recording volume is to high or I'm just not understanding something)

For monitoring I just set up monitor mixes from inputs using the onboard digital mixer stuff of my Motu interface(s)

so my question to you is, what volume do you record at on your motu faders?

 

[guitar486]

It has nothing to do with faders...we're talking about the gain settings on your PREAMPS while faders are at 0.

 

[LouieV702]

It has nothing to do with faders...we're talking about the gain settings on your PREAMPS while faders are at 0.

not to sound cocky or rude buddy, but I'm the one who started the thread and your getting the questions misunderstood. I'm asking for suggestions on FADER VOLUME not the other way around. If you read my post I said for an example (digi gain is set to 12'oclock) what would you RECORD on the SOFTWARE faders??? So going back to what you said earlier you would set your gain on the preamp at -17 db and record at 0 db on your fader??? You see where my question comes in now?
Matt was talking about monitoring volume as am I, but your confusing yourself and me guitar?

 

[guitar486]

No. I understand your question completely but I think what you don't understand is fader volume has nothing to do with what you are recording.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

not to sound cocky or rude buddy, but I'm the one who started the thread and your getting the questions misunderstood. I'm asking for suggestions on FADER VOLUME not the other way around. If you read my post I said for an example (digi gain is set to 12'oclock) what would you RECORD on the SOFTWARE faders???

Actually, guitar guy was taking you down the right track, Louie. Much of what the different folks have been saying here has been correct in their own ways; it's all pieces of the grand puzzle called "gain structure", and they all should be considered together.

To specifically answer your question, the method I (and many others) recommend is to record with your software faders at unity gain (the point labeled "0" where there is no gain or cut to the signal.) The same would be true of any input trim control on the software. Here's the deal:

The key here is the signal level going through your A/D converters into the computer. If you're running a typical computer interface like an mBox that contains your mic/line inputs and converters in the same box, then the level control that's crucial is the channel input level on that box. You set your levels there, and leave the levels in your software at unity gain, and you can then use your software meters for monitoring the proper level through your interface.

What levels should they be? You need to look up the specs on your interface for maximum input level (or similar wording). Take that number, subtract 4, and put a minus sign in front of it, and that will tell you the *average* (not peak) reading that you should be seeing on your meters. Adjust the input level on the interface (NOT in your software) to get a meter reading that looks something like that.

If you can't find that spec in your spec list, then as was mentioned earlier if you set that knob so that your meter is averaging somewhere around -18dBFS or so (give or take a couple of dB), you'll probably be close enough to see downtown. Of course, you don't want to clip at this point, so keep it below peak clipping no matter what your average signal is riding at. If you have to drop your average even lower than -18 to keep the peaks from clipping that's fine. But don't bother raising it if your peaks fall well below clipping, just to bring you peaks up. That does you no good and only will make mixing more difficult later on.

G.

 

[LouieV702]

No. I understand your question completely but I think what you don't understand is fader volume has nothing to do with what you are recording.

so your telling me if my gain on the digi is 0db and move my volume fader in pro tools to +7 db and record me saying bullshit!, and than record a new track at -7db saying bullshit, your telling me if I move the fader to 0 db on both tracks they will sound the same(theoretically me saying bullshit at the same tone and volume into the mic)???

 

[guitar486]

You should google "gain staging in pro tools" and do some learning.

Seriously, do it.

 

[LouieV702]

To specifically answer your question, the method I (and many others) recommend is to record with your software faders at unity gain (the point labeled "0" where there is no gain or cut to the signal.) The same would be true of any input trim control on the software.
G.

Thank you Glen (and to others who have reply) That's the answer I've been looking for this whole time. I wasn't necessarily looking for a "right answer" just on peoples preference on what gain structure they use? And as you have answer my original post question? Thank again!

 

[LouieV702]

Seriously, do it.

Seriously, I have....and at no point do I read personal recommendations on gain structure. Glen is the only person who has answer that question correctly. Personal, not standard text book information or some type of universal answer! Just a recommendation how YOU or THEY record? But all that aside bro, thanks for the reply's, I appreciate it, even though some things we disagree on!

 

[guitar486]

It has nothing to do with faders...we're talking about the gain settings on your PREAMPS while faders are at 0.

I believe I already discussed fader level.