What's more important...mic or preamp?

[Gherkin]

I'm just going to weigh in, and completely disregard the debate about matching a quality mic with a low quality pre and vice versa.

I'll be more worried about choosing the right mic for a recording than choosing the right pre.

For example, if I'm recording a kick drum, I'll be more worried about having an appropriate mic, such as a D6 or a Beta 52 or D112 than choosing between a selection of amazing pre amps. Any amazing pre amp will do an amazing job. The mic selection has to be appropriate to the source.

And by that logic, I'll say that the choice of microphone is more important.

 

[Richard Monroe]

What Gherkin has said about mic selection is, of course, true. As I've said before, cheap shoes that fit are better than expensive ones that don't. And- the right mic is always better than the most expensive one. What I'm interested in, though, is the effect of spending money (or not). I'm talking about using equipment that was designed essentially for the same purpose, which is why I want to separate dynamics and condensers. If the Behringer dynamic doesn't suck, then I will learn something in the process.

First, very few people can predict the effect of plugging a $20 mic into a $2500 preamp, because it is something that nobody ever does. Secondly, when people who have invested a fair amount of money in their gear, including myself, want to help people with no money, it's tough. When you read that post that says, "I'm 16 years old, and I can't afford an SM57, but I really need a mic, what do I do?", we tend to write that person off. Ha!, we say, you just can't afford recording gear, so come back when you are grown up, have money, and are realistic. Save your money, buy used, etc. It's hard to remember when the difference between $20 and $100 was huge.

See, if that Behringer mic doesn't totally suck, I would be able to offer realistic bottom feeder alternatives. And I might also discover that by copying the features of a successful inexpensive mic like an SM57, manufacturers have made today's wicked cheap mic better than the wicked cheap mic of 10 years ago. It's my assumption that in recording. like in race car tech, 90% of the money is spent on the last 10% of performance. That 10% is the difference between first and last place, along with the human factor.

On this board, over several years, I have seen bizzillions of posters fighting out a neverending paradox. Group #1 says you can't achieve professional quality sound with prosumer gear, so stop asking why your Nady condenser doesn't sound like a Manley Gold Refence. Group 2 says that if a real recording expert used that Nady, it would sound better than a clueless beginner using the Manley mic, etc. Of course, both groups are essentially right.

I stand squarely between those two groups. My argument is that a beginner can learn to record just as well with top flight gear as he can with cheap gear, and that we should not bust people's balls because they have money and are willing to spend it, or because they don't. My studio is an unholy alliance of expensive gear that works, cheap gear that works, and mid-priced equipment that I bought just because I found a good price on something. And over the years, I've gotten truly great service out of equipment at both ends of the price spectrum. My argument is that you have to use the money you have, and you have to use your ears, rather than relying in the hype put out by groups 1 and 2. The truth is, nobody really knows what happens if you plug a B.L.U.E. Kiwi into an Audiobuddy, because nobody ever does it.-Richie

 

[darrin_h2000]

BTW, that's not quite a bottom-feeder dynamic. The Nady SP-1 goes for more than ten bucks less---$8.18 at the cheapest price....

Ive seen this mic litterally at $5 each at the Musicians friend distribution center...and the Behringer mentioned above at $10...and the Octavia 319 I bought there was $20...so there is your bottom feeder mics right there.

I did find a good use for the behringer dynamic...keep them arround for when sombody wants to borrow a mic

It is still pointless to use crap that you know is crap...there is allways an SM57 sitting arround in a pawn shop for 25 bucks...so there is no excuse to buy a behringer anything.

 

[dgatwood]

Ive seen this mic litterally at $5 each at the Musicians friend distribution center...and the Behringer mentioned above at $10...and the Octavia 319 I bought there was $20...so there is your bottom feeder mics right there.

To be fair, the Oktava 319 was only $20 because they were trying to clear out the product line after their importer started importing fake Oktava microphones from a Chinese clone manufacturer instead of the real thing, resulting in a backlash against Oktava mics purchased at GC. The MK-319 is a $300+ microphone. Not saying that it necessarily deserves to be that expensive, but it is something of a boutique mic.

If you want a bottom feeder LDC, look no further than the Apex 435. If you're okay with an SDC, the Nady CM-88 or CM-90 both qualify.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Well what the hell? I'm proud of anybody who got an MK319 for $20. I thought I did pretty good at $50, and it turned out to be a go-to mic for female vocals, and pretty good on toms.
But my point above is clear. Are we buying that SM57 at the pawn shop because we really like it, or because somebody else liked it? I don't know. I went looking for a cheap mic, not a bad mic. If I wanted a *bad* mic, I would have used my EV N/D257, which really does suck. (it was a gift). If anybody wants it, give me a good sob story and pay the shipping. You can have it. I'm still looking for feedback on the mid-priced condensers. I'm leaning toward the C414.-Richie

 

[darrin_h2000]

Well what the hell? I'm proud of anybody who got an MK319 for $20. I thought I did pretty good at $50, and it turned out to be a go-to mic for female vocals, and pretty good on toms.
But my point above is clear. Are we buying that SM57 at the pawn shop because we really like it, or because somebody else liked it? I don't know. I went looking for a cheap mic, not a bad mic. If I wanted a *bad* mic, I would have used my EV N/D257, which really does suck. (it was a gift). If anybody wants it, give me a good sob story and pay the shipping. You can have it. I'm still looking for feedback on the mid-priced condensers. I'm leaning toward the C414.-Richie

I have about 3 better condencers I can use with female vocals...my 319 still needs to find its pourpose here...Its a german one allright...I bought this 5 years ago because of the hype here...its a dark sounding mic that I have and it works OK.

I like the sound of the C414 with most girls...and it is picked most all the time over the other condencers.

I purchased my SM57s at a pawnbroker for $20 each, there were 7 of them...and the SM7 was sitting there for $80...the same street 2 blocks down scored me at a neighboring pawn shop my Yamaha NS10s for $70.

The C414 I got at Guitar Center used for $400...my phaselinear model 400 reference amp I bought for $20 at a garage sale.(Alan Parsons used the PL 400 with NS10s to mix the 80s stuff)...my 1970s dbx160 was $50 and I bought that at a high end stereo shop.

A used Ludwig Rocker set with full set of Zildjin A series cymbols for $200...a supro 8watt tube amp for $30 (Zep fans will understand this one).

So Ive been pretty lucky...there are tons of pawn shops out there...the one that got away is painful...I missed out on a Lawson mic for only $400...but my luck with used gear has been pretty good.

 

[TomT]

No offense, but that's the biggest load of horse crap ever plopped on a road.

No, its not. I have used an SM58 on vocals run through a good Neve or Oram mic pre it it sounded like a million dollars. I would presonally buy more mics and one solid pre, but his concept is far from "horse crap" Dr sunshine.

 

[Fishmed]

No, its not. I have used an SM58 on vocals run through a good Neve or Oram mic pre it it sounded like a million dollars. I would presonally buy more mics and one solid pre, but his concept is far from "horse crap" Dr sunshine.

PhilGood and I have come to the conclusion of the meaning of the thread, and it really boils down to how you aproach the question.

If you look at it from a well equipped studio point of view and are actually in the process of recording... the mic is more important.

But...

If you are from the perspective of the purchase, as in you have limited funds, then the choice of mic pre is more important.

 

[TomT]

PhilGood and I have come to the conclusion of the meaning of the thread, and it really boils down to how you aproach the question.

If you look at it from a well equipped studio point of view and are actually in the process of recording... the mic is more important.

But...

If you are from the perspective of the purchase, as in you have limited funds, then the choice of mic pre is more important.

That indeed does make sense my friend.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Ooh baby! My bad boy Behringer mic has arrived! I can't wait to crank it up! I had to special order it, because even my local GC doesn't carry anything that cheap. Anyway, I will probably begin tracking the mix 'n match shootout tomorrow. I've decided I will use the following gear:

Preamps:
Behringer ADA8000
M-Audio DMP-3
JoeMeek twinQ
Avalon AD2022

Dynamic mics:
Behringer XM8500
Shure SM57
Shure SM7b

Condenser mics:
Studio Projects B-1
AKG C414B-ULS
B.L.U.E. Kiwi

The sources will be my Taylor 710CE solo, fingerstyle (impressive)
and my voice (not particularly impressive)
because they are what I have.

A-D conversion will be by Digi002, and will be tracked in 16 bits/44.1 kHz, because I really need it to be CD compatible. No EQ, no FX, no high pass filters, bone dry. If I have the time, I will add a few additional mics later on, particularly:

AKG D770
Sennheiser e835
AKG C2000B
Oktava MK319 (no mods)
Rode NTK

The Sennheiser and the D770 I want to add because they are SM57 alternatives which I prefer in most cases, and the 3 additional condensers just to fill in some of the lower mid-priced range. I have also selected them because they are the mics I use. I added the Joemeek to get a higher priced preamp than the DMP-3, but way short of the cost of the Avalon.

So give me some input, guys. This is your chance to affect my gear choices before any of it gets carved in stone.-Richie

 

[jaz49]

Should be real interesting...can't wait to hear it.

 

[omtayslick]

Looking forward to it Richie! I always look forward to your posts, because you have travelled that road from low end to higher end stuff, and thus speak from experience.

For selfish reasons, (because I own and use both) I would love to see the Oktava 319 and Sennheiser 835 included at some point.

The issue of one really good pre is something that I am thinking about a lot recently. I currently use a DMP3, ART proChannel and a Digimax FS.

And, as an aside, I can usually make all of these preamps sound very similar to each other with a little EQ tweaking and such.

But on the flip side, I always recognize the tracks recorded with the Oktava regardless of the pre used.

So the real question to me is: will a more expensive pre give a much improved sound in general? That is, will it take everything up a notch sonically? Because the differences in mics is already apparent to me even on the low end pres.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Well, Tom, who the hell knows? My studio was originally conceived to record an album, which was layered using overdub staff flown in from all over the country. What this meant to me was that I wasn't often recording a lot of tracks at once. On the other hand, I had to get it right, because my lead guitarist was at the other end of the country, in Portland, Oregon, and multiple overdub sessions were not a realistic option. The same was true of the backing vocalists, etc. I learned to love the Avalon not so much for what it did, but what it *didn't* do. It didn't make noise. It didn't clip-ever. I wasn't trying to mix the thing, or master it. I was trying to track it. That meant that if I could send the mixing engineer a pristine set of tracks, recorded with the right mics in a good room, he could spend his time mixing, instead of doing noise reduction, and trying to compensate for bad takes, bad EQ, and bad FX.

So I didn't spend a lot of my money on compressors, FX, etc. What I needed was 2 matched channels with a ton of gain, lots of headroom, and no noise. I also needed a top-notch bass DI. The Avalon has never let me down on any of those points. OK, then I realized drums were going to take at least 2 more channels. I bought the twinQ because I couldn't afford another Avalon. I later upgraded it to the new twinQ, which in many ways, is a better match for the Avalon. With the "iron" switch engaged, which uses transformers, it is quite similar to the Avalon. I found the compressor useful, with light compression, so I added an RNC to the Avalon's basic signal chain to get some available light compression, and struggled a bit with how to patch up the Avalon's XLR outs to the RNC with no available inserts. I worked it out.

Meanwhile, I was working on a micro-studio for remote recording, and as a scratchpad for the album project when I was on the road, based on a KORG PXR4 Pandora. It needed a small inexpensive preamp. Based on a lot of recommendations on this board, I got a DMP-3. In the studio, it turned out to be 2 more auxiliary channels for expanded drum mic'ing, and a non-critical preamp for a talkback mic.

Then I got involved in a commercial project, doing a Science Fiction radio play, which sometimes involved a whole lot of open dynamic mics. The core had been upgraded to a Digi002 for better AD conversion, so I started looking for an 8 channel pre with lightpipe out, and the project didn't require particularly great preamps, just a lot of channels by lightpipe. So I got a Behringer ADA8000, which did the job just fine, and for what it's worth, it expanded my available simultaneous inputs to 18. That's the 002's own pres 1-4, the Avalon 5-6, DMP-3 7-8, the twinQ by S/PDIF 9-10, and the ADA8000 11-18. But where do things really go? To the Avalon, just like they always did, and to the twinQ because I'm tracking drums, or I just want the sound of agressive optical compression, usually on vocals. And, by this time I had acquired enough mics, cables, mic stands, headphone distribution, etc. that in some imaginable situation, I might actually be able to use all 18 simultaneous ins! Woo Hoo! But what am I more likely doing? - recording in stereo with the Avalon and a pair of Neumanns.

You see, the point is this, Omtayslick- I didn't do anything like what you said. I didn't work my way up that long ladder from Behringer to Avalon, from SM57 to Neumann. Just the reverse. I planned out my studio with a dedicated budget to do a specific job, and acquired my best guess of the top-notch signal chain to do it. Then, as I began to do small commercial projects with a variety of needs, the need for more simultaneous inputs drove me to lower level gear, because that dedicated budget wouldn't support 18 channels of Avalon and Neumann. At least, by the time that happened, I had learned enough to buy cheap gear that could do what I needed it to, and to not expect it to do what it can't. I'm still doing it, I'm still having fun, and I expect that fracking Avalon will outlive me, in spite of my best efforts to kill it. Hell, I'm about to jack a Behringer dynamic into it. That may actually kill it with shame! Or- it may sound better than any one of us would have thought. More to come.-Richie

BTW, you're not Gracie's brother are you? I think she has a brother named Tom...

 

[omtayslick]

Nope. Not Gracie's bro. If I was I'd have access to better gear!

Omtayslick is pig-latin for Tom Slick, sort of. Tom Slick used to be my nick-name when I worked in the steel mills of northern Indiana.

I have seen you post on low end and higher end gear, and give very useful advice to low-enders, so I assumed that your story was different than it is.

Even so, I have seen you give very sensible and down to earth advice to the inexperienced. (As do many others on these pages) So for that, thank you.

Looking forward to the sound files.

 

[JuliánFernández]

Looking foward to hear the results, Richard!

 

[Richard Monroe]

Thanks for your kind words, Tom. Every time I read a post from a clueless noob, I try to remember that I am only a few mics, a few pres, and a few years of trial and error from that noob. I'm a songwriter, not an engineer, so I don't have enough technical knowledge to confuse anybody with technobabble. And the things I do know, I know them because I did them, and they worked. Prior to this homerec experience, I was lucky enough to record in some real professional studios, and to use some gear that I wish I owned now. I work at a day job, and thanks to my beloved wife (executive producer/artistic director/enabler), I've been lucky enough to have an operational budget serious enough to own a few pieces of top shelf gear. But that budget is not unlimited, so I've learned to combine that gear with some cheap stuff that works, in a sort of unholy alliance. That's one of the advantages of a project studio, aside from all the time in the world- it forces you to use gear for things it wasn't really built for, and in the process, you learn the things that the big boys didn't- like the qualities of an AKG D112 as a vocal mic. Oh well- time to crank up that Behringer-Richie

 

[darrin_h2000]

To sum this up...it is most definantly the mic...but you can get a great mic for under $400...and if you save more and get the NEVE or API...that will bring out the best in that used C414...SM7...or SM57...thank god you can get the NEVE for under $1000 nowdays.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Alrighty- this is going to take a while. I finished the first run tonight, which is all of the dynamics listed above through the Behringer preamp. I don't want to predjudice anyone, so all I can say is that the results are totally different than what I would have predicted, and what I heard in the cans wasn't even close to what I heard on the monitors. I wanted to pick a short clip with something delicate, and don't want to make you poor bastards have to listen to more of *me* than is absolutely necessary. I'm a songwriter, not an American Idol finalist. So- I settled on the last verse of 4+20 by Stephen Stills, because most folks know what it sounds like, and it shows off the fine voice- of my Taylor. I don't sound even remotely like Stephen Stills. The guitar part is delicate, and is in a weird version of open D- like drop D on steroids. It's actually DADDAD. Because all of the dynamics have pretty low output, my bottom feeder pre was cranked a bit, and it shows, on all the mics. This has already been educational for me. One thing for sure- by the time this is done, I'll be able to play 4+20 in my sleep.-Richie

 

[PhilGood]

No, its not. I have used an SM58 on vocals run through a good Neve or Oram mic pre it it sounded like a million dollars. I would presonally buy more mics and one solid pre, but his concept is far from "horse crap" Dr sunshine.

Yeah?

So you plugged a good mic into a good preamp and it sounded great.

What's your point?

 

[dgatwood]

Not really a surprise there. Dynamic mics bring out the worst in preamps. They push them to their limits. The Behringer's SNR just barely cuts it---EIN is on the order of -106.4 dB if I'm reading this post by SteveG correctly:

http://www.audiomastersforum.net/amforum/index.php?topic=3632.0

That makes it usable, but not great. It would be fine for condenser mics.

To put that in perspective, my Peavey PV8's pres spec out at -129 dB EIN.... They work quite well with whatever I throw at them, including ribbons. They're also $10 per channel more expensive, of course, but still peanuts.