Snare Drum Reverb Help

  • Thread starter Thread starter jeliot86
  • Start date Start date
Step back a second. Let's get some better info here.

What is the kit you're using? What are doing in the way of tuning, dampening (which is usually overdone by most folks) and placement?

What kind of mics are you using, where and how many?

Gotta start at square one.
 
jeliot86 said:
Do you think a good tuning will make that extra leap?
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Man!!! Good tuning isn't the extra leap. It's the FIRST and MOST IMPORTANT step.

If these guys you sat with that supposedly have done a lot of recordings over the years over-looked or dismissed good tuning, then they shouldn't be giving you any advice. I'm not trying to be harsh, and I commend you for taking the advice you're getting here without getting defensive. But, tuning the drum really is the most important thing. Forget about plug-ins, reverb, or any other band-aid.

It starts at the source. A good drummer. A well tuned drum. Then good mics. Then mic placement. After that, the rest is just icing. But icing on a shitty cake doesn't save the cake.
 
PhilGood said:
Step back a second. Let's get some better info here.

What is the kit you're using? What are doing in the way of tuning, dampening (which is usually overdone by most folks) and placement?

What kind of mics are you using, where and how many?

Gotta start at square one.
Click to expand...


Ok

A '77 full set of Evans. Kick, Hi Mid Tom, Lo Mid Tom, Floor Tom

Snare
MXL 991 - top mic
CAD E200 - Bottom mic

Kick
RE20 - Front mic
CAD KBM 412 - Back mic

Toms (hi lo mixed to single track)
Nady DM70's

Floor Tom
Nady DM80

Overheads
MXL 990
Rode NT1-A

Damping some masking tape on snare and toms
and floor tom has a wallet on it. Oh and we taped a small peice of foam (under lay for rugs onto each mid tom)

Allen and heath 16:2 as the pre amp on everything except the overheads. Used a Pre Sonus MP20 with jenson transformers.

Let me know if I missed anything
 
2 more question:

Are you flipping the phase on the bottom snare mic???

How are the overheads configured???

EDIT: I just noticed something. Are you using 2 different types of mics as overheads???? :eek:
 
RAMI said:
2 more question:

Are you flipping the phase on the bottom snare mic???

How are the overheads configured???

EDIT: I just noticed something. Are you using 2 different types of mics as overheads???? :eek:
Click to expand...

I did flip the phase on bottom snare mic and front kick mic and the overheads where recorded one out of phase.
Oh and on one Mid tom mic
I knew the overhead question was coming:o

I searched for days and the only two exact mics i could come up with were our live vocal mics SM Beta 58a's

EDIT: Does it make it any better that I thought to put the Rode on the Snare Hit Hat side be cause of its Noticeable....High frequency response...........................ahh screw it....it sucks.... I know
If I wasn't FREAKING getting married in 6 months I would have been at guitar center last month buying two sm57's or something.....DAM IT =)
 
Take that tape/dampeing off the snare. Let it ring a little. Its way too dull sounding. Tune it naked, then add a bit of moonjell if you want to kill some bad resonance.

Read up on phase. Figure out how to adjust your phase properly.

If i dont know how a certain setup will be in regards to phase issues, i usually record all the mics normally, then solo them against each other to determine what needs to be fixed. I start with the kick and overheads. I look at the kick wave form in my daw to see if I am getting a positive wave (wave starts goign up) on the first transient. If thats correct then I leave that alone, and then solo it against the overheads. If the bass gets less full I switch the overheads phase to see if I get the proper bass response.. Then I solo the overheads against the snare and switch phase if I need to. Then the toms and so on. This works for me.

As for snare reverb. I do a similar type of music. When trying to get a good smooth lively snare sound I have found that all the snare reverb in the world never seems to sound better than sticking a mic 4-6ft in front of the drumset, compressed and slipped back under the mix just a bit so you get the resonance of the room. It adds a lot of life and realism to the mix can reveal a nice crack from the drum, and gets you sound that one could think is a bit of verb. This works even on a crappy sounding room.

-josh
 
RAMI said:
That's a good thing. It HAS to be the bottom mic, by the way.

Ummmm.....why????


Ummmm...........why????

:)
Click to expand...

It was more so by accident on the overheads I realized after one of the phase buttons on the presonus was checked. As far as the toms it seemed when I flipped the switch on one or the other the sound got fuller, maybe just me:o
 
Slowjett said:
Take that tape/dampeing off the snare. Let it ring a little. Its way too dull sounding. Tune it naked, then add a bit of moonjell if you want to kill some bad resonance.

Read up on phase. Figure out how to adjust your phase properly.

If i dont know how a certain setup will be in regards to phase issues, i usually record all the mics normally, then solo them against each other to determine what needs to be fixed. I start with the kick and overheads. I look at the kick wave form in my daw to see if I am getting a positive wave (wave starts goign up) on the first transient. If thats correct then I leave that alone, and then solo it against the overheads. If the bass gets less full I switch the overheads phase to see if I get the proper bass response.. Then I solo the overheads against the snare and switch phase if I need to. Then the toms and so on. This works for me.

As for snare reverb. I do a similar type of music. When trying to get a good smooth lively snare sound I have found that all the snare reverb in the world never seems to sound better than sticking a mic 4-6ft in front of the drumset, compressed and slipped back under the mix just a bit so you get the resonance of the room. It adds a lot of life and realism to the mix can reveal a nice crack from the drum, and gets you sound that one could think is a bit of verb. This works even on a crappy sounding room.

-josh
Click to expand...

Great info man thanks. I'm deffinately going to try out the mic out in front of the set. And I have been working a little with phase today so I'll try the method you mention and see if things fill out a little.
As far as the snare I already took of the tape...we have a reocrding session tomorrow. I'll post the another take , hopefully my drummer will take my advice and spend some time with me tunning, he may be my elder........but I'm bigger ;)
 
I'd go with one mic on the kick, and to tell the truth it would be the CAD. I know some folks might disagree, but that mic has a tailored sound that works pretty darn well without EQ.

I would also pair up the 990 and 991 as overheads if that's all you've got. The use the same circuit and capsule in different housings. They well sound a bit different, but it seems like the closest two mics you've got for a pair.

Try just the kick mic and two overheads as a test, just to see how you're kit sounds in a pure stereo setup. Go from there.
 
PhilGood said:
..Try just the kick mic and two overheads as a test, just to see how you're kit sounds in a pure stereo setup. Go from there.
Click to expand...

Yikes, agreed, snare verb- gates, ten mics?! :)
Get those two overheads into the same polarity, readjust their left right volume for balance and center image (And width too if need be. There is much strength of focus that can reside at less than 100% wide.)
Add in the re20, try that one polarity both ways.
You're going for the best coherent punchy tone and balance first here -the foundation of the kit. The kick was killed before, it should come back now.
Now add the snare -polarity test again against the o/h's (neither will be 'right or wrong, either way can work.. but one will fit best.) Mix that one up as needed.
Typically (very general!) kick and snare hot' in this mix. All that other stuff are then 'touch-up. :)
 
I would like to thank all who jump in with their ideas and critiques. The band has decided to take the already recorded drums and use them as a base to record the final takes on the rest of the instruments. My drummer will be first looking to get a new snare (apparently he was already in the market for one:D) and once ready we'll set the drums up again and start fresh with I nice tuned set, matching overhead mics ect.....ect....

And I'm sure I'll be giving this thread a bumb once that time comes again. I do have two last questions before I start trolling the Electric Guitar threads:eek:

1. Does it make a difference spending the time making out of phase cables and recording with phase correction or will my phase switch in Sonar work just the same. If it will make ANY difference at all I will spend the time making the cables and checking phase pre recording.

2. The last reply there mentioned combining the MXL's, would it be better to use my 2 Beta 58a's because there the exact same or do they not have the frequency response needed for an overhead drum application.

Thanks again guys. Talk to ya in a month or so.
 
1. Does it make a difference spending the time making out of phase cables and recording with phase correction or will my phase switch in Sonar work just the same. If it will make ANY difference at all I will spend the time making the cables and checking phase pre recording.
Click to expand...
Quickly, polarity can be done at the cable, pre or in Cake', it's all the same. 'Flipped one way or the other may sound better but it is only 180 degrees and is not compensation for time delay if the distances are different.
Generally -it'd be good to settle things like that (The Tone! :)) before pushing record -but I admit- no mater how 'settled I got the drums for example- things like that are still options to check once 'context in the mix comes home to roost.

2. The last reply there mentioned combining the MXL's, would it be better to use my 2 Beta 58a's because there the exact same or do they not have the frequency response needed for an overhead drum application.
Click to expand...
Best guess here- rather have the tone of two similar condensers. A closer to done tone', smaller and less tweeks. Again though, from the 'this is the foundation of the whole kit' perspective.
 
Here is another basic thing to consider.

What type of heads are on the batter/reso sides of the snare? In my experience, a single ply batter head is the most open sounding (no control rings). I personally use a coated Remo Ambassador for the batter on my snare. If you are an Evans guy you might want to look at a coated G1. I would stay away from any batter head labeled as "Dry" if you are wanting a more open sound.

As far as the reso side, ensure there is an actual snare reso head on there (Hazy style head). Personally, I use a Remo Hazy Ambassador. For Evans maybe a Hazy 300.

Also try removing the tape from the snare. Tape is a nice crutch for tuning woes and to eliminate overtones (which I like a little overtone personally). But it is much better in the long run to just suck it up and learn how to tune the thing. As far as snare tuning, there is a pretty good instructional video on Evans' website and YouTube from Bob Gatzen. Check them out, good info there.

Again, this is basic stuff and I'm not trying to insult your intelligence (you may already know these things). I listened to your reference song and it sounds like the drummer had a very open and well tuned snare which is what I based my response on.

By the way, whoever said that "Icing on a shitty cake, doesn't save the cake," was spot on. Gave me a good chuckle too.
 
Thanks again guys. I'll bump the thread once we get our rerecorded drums so you guys can check them out in the mix. I'll give my drummer the advice on the snare heads

thanks
 
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