S
shackrock
New member
Maybe we can get Scott Hull to join the site, ha! just joshin.
Maybe we can get Scott Hull to join the site, ha! just joshin.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
What about it?
I gotta ask the same question here that I asked Peter Pan. Why do all the newbs feel that they are qualified to track and mix, but not to master?
Why is it so difficult to understand that if they need someone better than them to use mastering to try and fix their broken tracking or mix, that they'd be far better off spending their money on getting the tracking and mixing right than on trying to get someone to cover their mistakes in mastering?
This is why I feel the site will attract only those newbs with no money and no understanding on one side, and only those hobbyists with no money and no understanding willing to work for the fun or the practice of it on the other, with both sides being deluded enough into thinking they are actually performing or getting quality service for a bargain.
You guys don't need mastering services. you need tracking and mixing services. You just don't seem to want to understand that.
G.
R
RAMI
Guest
And if he won't come here, maybe we should all go to Hull.
(OK, I apologize for that
)
Chili
Site Moderator
And if he won't come here, maybe we should all go to Hull.
(OK, I apologize for that
It took me about 30 seconds to get that. I wondered why you were apologizing.
S
shackrock
New member
nice one, haha.
and to southside - hey, i'm just playing to the masses now. haha.
and to southside - hey, i'm just playing to the masses now. haha.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Oh, good. Just what this phucked up industry needs more of
.No need for a survey then. The masses would never get through the questionnaire.
G.
S
shackrock
New member
haha.
No but, baring any outrageous expenses, I do plan on giving the site a try. So we'll see how it goes.
No but, baring any outrageous expenses, I do plan on giving the site a try. So we'll see how it goes.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
Absolutely, that's the way to go about it.
A survey may be able to help you fine tune your approach to your potential customers, but it won't give you an answer as to whether you should go ahead or not. You should never give up on a business idea because a survey said you should. The only way to find out if your idea will work is to create the site, work with it for a while, and see what happens.
While not discounting the value of experience, sometimes the most experienced people are very used to doing things the way they've always done them for years. Or may have had setbacks themselves in their careers or business that make them wary of taking chances. I'm not talking about anyone in particular, just generally. One does tend to get more cautious with age. So sometimes the thing that must be done is to simply jump off the cliff and find out if the parachute really works.
If you've done your homework, sooner or later you simply have to take a chance. Taking risks is how you find great rewards. Or failure. But playing it safe will certainly lead to nothing.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
But so what? It's pay to play, right? There's a price of admission, so that weeds out a bunch right there. The feedback system will ensure that after a while the better engineers will start getting more in demand, and the wannabe engineers will fall by the wayside.
Plus, people will be able to hear the mixed tracks and judge for themselves what sounds good and what doesn't.
I've heard tracks posted on this board and others by so-called "amateurs" that sounded pretty good to me. People who had a gift for mixing but didn't really ever make an entree into the professional world of it. A site like the one being proposed could possibly get some of these types of folks off the ground, as it were. At least that's what I would hope.
Plus, even pretty busy pro engineers have some slow periods. Why couldn't they make themselves available, at their own higher rates of course, for those periods where they need to pick up some extra work?
Seems like the site being proposed could work for a lot of different levels of hobbyist to pro.
Southside, I'm assuming you could hang a shingle on the site as well, and maybe pick up some work. At least that's how I understand how this site is going to work. It just seems that anything that raises the profile of the engineer and makes it easier to connect with potential clients is going to be a very good thing.
As long as the pricing structure is flexible enough to handle everything from hobbyist beginners to pro engineers, I could see this being a cool thing.
N
NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
It may be there just isn't enough respect for this industry. I think this will do nothing but cause the system we have to self destruct which it seems to be doing anyway. Where are the standards and laws?
The big problem IMHO is there is no regulation in this field. You do not need a license or any formal education whatso ever to say you are musician, a recording engineer, a mastering engineer, a producer...
Look at what would happen if you were to do this in the medical industry...
Ok, you break your arm and go to an HMO and you submit your condition for bidding. Assuming as we are that the better reputation will demand more money...
- If you have alot of money you'll go with the highest bid because it's your arm that you stand to lose.
- If you are poor you'll have to be looking at the lowest bid.
- If you're a doctor you'd be saying you're a fool for getting into this career
Eventually we'd end up with more sick people and less professionals.
Hmmm...pondering you go Aretha, you go girl...just a little bit
R
E
S
P
E
C
T
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Al, we're talking past each other here and not to each other.
It doesn't bother you that the entire art and science of music production is being destroyed by folks who promote the idea of backloading the process and who are convoluting the very definitions of "mixing" and "mastering" into something they are not and were never intended to be. Not because it's a good idea, but simply because that is their misguided understanding. The inmates are beginning to run the assylum.
That bothers the shit out of me. I am too much of a lover of music to sit back and watch it be trashed by the Entitlement Movement without being moved.
I could hang my shingle out there, Al, but no one will come for two reasons: one, because I actually charge a living wage rate for my services. That automatically prices me out of the competition. And two, because as a producer/mix engineer, there is no market for my services on such a board. Most newbs do not produce or mix their music anymore, and have no idea what it actually means to do so.
No, this board will be for those who record their tracks, slap them together into a stereo file, and then bring that file to some schmuck with a copy of Ozone to try and actually breathe some life into it. Which, by the time they end up smashing the RMS against the wall, is crushed right back out of it again anyway. I refuse to play "Internet Mastering Engineer" (though it's so incredibly easy to do). I'll stick to those who understand how the world really turns.
And I'm sorry Al, but one should not base business decisions on an idea and a whim, either. One does not invest thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours without doing at least something to make sure the odds are in their favor first. The entrepreneurial graveyard is filled with the corpses of "good ideas" for which there was no actual market.
G.
jmorris
New member
Glen, I with you 100% freak'in percent! I'll add that the better the artist/musician, and the better the compositions, the more important it will be to the artist/musician to have the products handles properly.
LemonTree
Suck 'em and see!
Shoes for pigeons. That'll take off. You could sell them on ebay.
D
dean1964
New member
An Ebay for audio professionals. I'd be a "seller" of services if the opportunity were available. For the right kind of people, younger and aspiring engineers that see audio as a carer path, this could be an excellent way to find teeth cutting work.
I just did my first mastering job and am thinking that it was fun, educational, and so on. It was a real job on a record that may make it into the fold of a label. As soon as QC is done with it, Ill know how it went.
I'd love to find another job like this but the classified ads have no mastering work. https://homerecording.com/bbs/images/icons/icon10.gif
But I agree with Glen and the rest that the waters would be poisoned. You would have to screen those that were offering services. Maybe review their portfolio, and you may find that the difference between the qualified and the unqualified to be obvious.
I hope it works out. Untill then I'll find work the old way. Keep my ears peeled and try to make some friends.
Later.
I just did my first mastering job and am thinking that it was fun, educational, and so on. It was a real job on a record that may make it into the fold of a label. As soon as QC is done with it, Ill know how it went.
I'd love to find another job like this but the classified ads have no mastering work. https://homerecording.com/bbs/images/icons/icon10.gif
But I agree with Glen and the rest that the waters would be poisoned. You would have to screen those that were offering services. Maybe review their portfolio, and you may find that the difference between the qualified and the unqualified to be obvious.
I hope it works out. Untill then I'll find work the old way. Keep my ears peeled and try to make some friends.
Later.
S
shackrock
New member
Yeah as I read some more of your posts glen, I'm starting to get some even better ideas here.... If you like to moderate webpages, I may have a job for you in the future. hahaha.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
My understanding is that this is a "mixing" site. i.e. the client will have multiple tracks of individual instruments and vocals that need mixing. There are already a couple or a thousand "mastering" sites. And I think that some of those people do some business.
It's an art and a business. Ultimately an art in my opinion, but only those that succeed in a business sense are the ones that can keep pursuing their art.
It's an art and a business. Ultimately an art in my opinion, but only those that succeed in a business sense are the ones that can keep pursuing their art.
N
NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
It is an art but you don't have to succeed in business to purse it. However, to enjoy certain tax advantages you have to have the presence of a profit motive.
When you enter into an activity expecting to make a profit you can deduct all the expenses from the activity as a deduction from AGI.
In contrast, all the expenses from an activity in which a taxpayer did not have a profit motive (a hobby), can only be deducted as a miscellaneous itemized deduction (subject to the 2% rule) to the extent of income from the activity. ~oo~
Also, unlike hobby losses, losses from a profit activity can be used to offset other income(like from the koolaid stand
), so you really want to make every effort to treat it like a business. The burden to prove the presence of a profit motive lies with the taxpayer but once you show a profit in any 3 of 5 consecutive years, the burden of proof shifts back to the IRS.
Factors the IRS considers in deciding whether an activity is a hobby or a business are:
1. The taxpayer's expertise in the area e.g. ~oo~ see - Stop calling yourself a PRODUCER
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=2749742. Whether you keep separate books and records for the activity
3. The profit loss ratio
4. The amount of occasional profits
5. The relative amount of pleasure the taxpayer derives from the activity
6. The extent you depend on the financial support
7. The time and effort you devote to it
8. Your past success with other activities
9. Your expectation that the property used in the activity will rise in value.
One final thought, when you use a standard deduction, all hobby loss deductions are lost. Thus "all" of the gross income from the hobby is taxed.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
That would be wonderful if the textbook definition of mixing weren't dying a slow and painful death. The new generation of DIYers somehow believe that 90% of what "mixing" is supposed to be is what they now try to get done in what they call "mastering", and that 90% of what we call "mastering" is stuff that the newbs aren't even aware of.
This is the real answer to the question I keep asking of newbs that they almost never can answer. This is exactly why newbs believe that mixing is easy but mastering is hard; it's because they don't actually mix, and they leave all the work for the mastering stage, by which time it is indeed much more difficult - and often too late - to get the mixing right.
True enough. But we're not talking about Shackrock trying to make a business out of audio engineering. We are talking about Shackrock trying to make a business *out of a website* that just so happens to be related to audio engineering. It could just as easily be related to carpet cleaning or accounting. As a long-time business web developer and manager I can tell you that while I believe at my core that web development is an art - and it is - that the minute one crosses the boundary from a hobby website to a business website, that the artfulness of it becomes a secondary consideration. It's still important, but the smoothest, easiest-to-navigate, prettiest and most functional website on the planet won't make dime one if there's no market for it (remember the Edsel?) or if the business model on which it's based just doesn't generate enough revenue for the web owner or sponsor (remember the early models of Internet advertising?) or if one invests in an idea based upon the idea only without actually trying to research the market first (remember the burst of the entire dotcom bubble?)
I just see the major trends that are destroying both the art and business of audio production, mainly the belief that everybody who can afford a guitar and a firebox can record and mix a worthwhile recording with next to zero investment in skill development, and that anybody that actually charges money for either their software product, engineering service, or even final music release is a crook.
I just don't see how there's a whole lot of revenue to be squeezed out of a market that has no money to start with and that, even if it did, feels that they should get everything for free or at worst, token prices only.
Which is exactly why succeeding on the business end of it trumps the art end of it, and which is also exactly why one should do their best to make sure the business end of it has everything it can muster going for it before they actually go with it.
The successful general is the one who scouts out and learns the ways of the opposition before marching into battle.
G.
Last edited: