Considering Doing Some Acoustic Guitar Repair/ Mods Myself... (Somewhat Long Post)

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stevieb

Just another guy, really.
Three acoustic guitars under consideration:

Left-handed Seagull S6 Dreadnaught- bridge is lifting pretty badly, no other mechanical/sonic issues;

Right-handed Seagull S6 Folk. No problems at all. (Oh, for anyone who remembers, I got the Alvarez all ready for Gale, she decided she likes it better than the Seagull because I got it expressly for her.) My friend Don is currently enjoying possession of that guitar, him playing in the Too-Big Guitar Group (TBGG) and he only owns a nylon-string guitar- I've loaned him this guitar for the time being.

Harmony Tenor. When it came to me, bridge was split badly- I super-glued it back together, but have not glued it back to the top yet.

Before you go off, I have the right glue for the bridges- superglue was the only thing that would work on the bridge pieces. Not sure if the bridge will stay together- tenor bridges are not available anywhere I have looked, if it turns out I need a new bridge for the tenor, I will have to either use a classical bridge, or shape one from a blank.

I re-glued the bridge on an Aria, over ten years ago- made cauls from 2 x 4's, it worked well. I know about intonation, bridge location, etc.- not a total noob at this, but not an experienced, trained-in-the-old-world luthier, either.

Some personal history, that applies to this thread: I play left-handed. I once owned another right-handed Seagull S6 Folk, re-strung it lefty, and although intonation was off, I loved it's tone and timbre. I foolishly decided having a left-handed guitar was more important to me than "that sound," and I sold the Folk and bought the Dread.

A couple years later, got a Martin D-16, mahogny top. Now, the 'Gull and the Martin have different tones- the Martin, with it's mahogony top, is brighter, cuts thru the mix better (I love that, both when I had my bluegrass band, and now, with my too-big guitar group, I can make myself heard when I feel the need.) The Seagull's Spruce top gives me darker, "smokier" tones. Both have strong bass, due to their dreadnaught bodies.

What I loved, and miss, about the S6 Folk, was it's balanced tone- the smaller body did not emphasize the bass like the dreads do. I bought "Folk II" to get that back. (I think F-I had a cedar top, and I think F-II has a spruce top, but as neither is here, I can't confirm that right now.)

I THINK I want to keep two of these three guitars (keeping the tenor, regardless)- Martin and Seagull Folk, and want them to both be lefty and thus playable by me. So, I would switch the bridges and nuts of both 'gulls. But wait, there's more! Nuts will not exactly switch, as the folk has a slightly wider neck. (I've shaped a nut from stock material before- no fun, lots of tedious work.) The pick guards would both be in the wrong place- I'd either have to switch them over- perferred, but not sure they will come off in one piece and not damage the wood, or put a second pickguard on both tops (yuck. Ugly.)

Now, I know the pickguards will leave a "shadow" of themselves on the top, so I am thinking of refinishing the tops of both 'gulls.

So, here are my questions:

1. I have never had to remove a bridge- they always were already off, or loose. Can I use my kitchen tea kettle to steam the bridge off the S6 folk?

2. I have heard the nitrose-cellular lacquer used on Seagulls is water-based, and not compatable with some readily-available NC lacquers. Does anyone know who to test the existing finish?

Thanks.
 
With the greatest respect I don't think you have thought this through.

The amount of work and degree of expertise you need to accomplish all that is not insignificant.

Set your targets carefully and identify a methodical approach to each step. Find out how the job is done correctly. For example you don't steam a bridge off with a kettle. From what you describe it also seems that you don't have a full grasp on the amount of work you want to undertake.

I recently did a photo essay on another site detailing removing and reglueing an acoustic bridge. I can post it here if you want as an example of the process but you really need to think this through and prioritise your objectives. Refinishing a top alone would set you back a significant sum of money in most decent workshops. There is a reason for that.;)
 
Well, yeah, sure, post that puppy! Let's see it.

As for my abilities, I have refinished guitars in the past, with good results.

And the kettle idea is not an original one- I saw a how-to on building such a steamer, once. Just don't recall where.
 
stevieb said:
Well, yeah, sure, post that puppy! Let's see it.

As for my abilities, I have refinished guitars in the past, with good results.

And the kettle idea is not an original one- I saw a how-to on building such a steamer, once. Just don't recall where.
Click to expand...

I'll try and post it up later no problem.

The refinishing bit that flagged me is this.

I have heard the nitrose-cellular lacquer used on Seagulls is water-based
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.

If it's water based it cannot be nitrocellulose lacquer. If you have experience finishing you should be able to identify whats on there and what you can or can't get away with. Be aware that that shading is in the timber as well and you'll have to strip right back to bare spruce and do quite a bit of work with a cabinet scraper and fine paper to get it out.

The use of steam in any form of guitar building is rare. What you probably saw was a method for introducing steam into a neck tenon. It is heat that separates the glue line not steam. Steam is used in that instance because it is near impossible to get enough heat in there. The steam is used as a carrier for the heat.

If you try and use steam to remove a bridge you are asking for trouble. That's just not how it's done. I have seen people recommend using water, don't you will raise the grain on the spruce and start pulling the fibres off. It's the glue line you want to separate.

I would suggest you use the tenor as a chance to make a new bridge. After that you can tackle the problems involved in removing the bridge on your existing guitars and also modify the saddle slot at the same time.
 
Thanks for the link, Muttley.

Working from pure memory can really get one in trouble, I guess- the NCL thing was from a while back, too. What I do recall is that SOMETHING about the NCL Seagull uses is supposed to be not compatable with other NCL's.
 
stevieb said:
Thanks for the link, Muttley.

Working from pure memory can really get one in trouble, I guess- the NCL thing was from a while back, too. What I do recall is that SOMETHING about the NCL Seagull uses is supposed to be not compatable with other NCL's.
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No problem,

Nitrocellulose lacquers are distinct from others in a few ways but one very distinct one. The build is made up of layers that actually chemically and physically "melt" into each other. shellac is another. Other lacquers or more correctly "finishes" are comprised of distinct layers that sit one on the other with a mechanical bond. Water-borne finishes fall into that category.

I don't know what Seagull use as a finish, I've never really had to work on the finish on one I have only ever seen it described as a "traditional lacquer" but it could be that they use a pre cat lacquer of some sort. They are nitro based but not entirely compatible with some traditional nitrocellulose lacquers. Neither use water as a solvent carrier. If there was a (decent) water borne nitro based finish us guys would be all over it. :D
 
stevieb said:
Harmony Tenor. When it came to me, bridge was split badly- I super-glued it back together, but have not glued it back to the top yet.

Before you go off, I have the right glue for the bridges- superglue was the only thing that would work on the bridge pieces. Not sure if the bridge will stay together- tenor bridges are not available anywhere I have looked, if it turns out I need a new bridge for the tenor, I will have to either use a classical bridge, or shape one from a blank.
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Super Glue is NOT the right glue. If anything, the right glue is regular wood glue, but if the bridge is cracked/broken in anything but the most superficial way, you should be making a new one. Glue bonds can be very strong, but they just don't do it for gluing bridges back together.





stevieb said:
But wait, there's more! Nuts will not exactly switch, as the folk has a slightly wider neck. (I've shaped a nut from stock material before- no fun, lots of tedious work.) The pick guards would both be in the wrong place- I'd either have to switch them over- perferred, but not sure they will come off in one piece and not damage the wood, or put a second pickguard on both tops (yuck. Ugly.)
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New nuts, no question. There is no other good way to go.


You could also go with no pickguards. You would still have the shadow, but that's just cosmetic.

And you do NOT want to refinish the tops. Trust me. It is extremely time consuming, will damage the sound of the guitar, and if you sand enough to get rid of the pickguard shadow, you will be making the top way too thin. Refinishing tops on acoustics is one of the worst ideas people bring into the shop, as far as I'm concerned.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
UPDATE on the tenor:

Glued the bridge back on to the top two days ago, with Titebond original. Two nuts-and-bolts had been put thru it and the top by someone else, so I used those holes and the bridge pin holes, and a clamp like muttley's. 18 hours later, removed the clamp, re-installed the nuts and bolts (otherwise would have had holes on the bridge) and strung it back up with strings just a bit smaller than ones recommended by tenorguitar.com website.

First tuning was standard guitar tuning for bottom 4 strings- easy to play as I didn't have to learn any new chord shapes, and the tone/timbre/sound was okay- but nothing to get me excited. Then, just for kicks, tuned to 5ths, with the high string at A. Wow! Those high-string notes really cut thru, even at my too-big guitar group rehersal.

Light, I appreciate your expertiese and knowledge, but your "Super Glue is NOT the right glue" statment is off the mark. There is just no way to build a clamp or caul that would have held all those little bits of wood together while something like Titebond dried- in this case, Super Glue was the RIGHT glue because it was the ONLY glue that would have worked. I really did not expect the bridge to hold together for even 10 minutes, and kept watching it while I tuned the strings up, but now, almost two days later, it's doing fine. And besides, if it failed, what would I have lost? I would humbly suggest that perhaps this might be an opportunity for you to learn something new.
 
stevieb said:
Light, I appreciate your expertiese and knowledge, but your "Super Glue is NOT the right glue" statment is off the mark. There is just no way to build a clamp or caul that would have held all those little bits of wood together while something like Titebond dried- in this case, Super Glue was the RIGHT glue because it was the ONLY glue that would have worked. I really did not expect the bridge to hold together for even 10 minutes, and kept watching it while I tuned the strings up, but now, almost two days later, it's doing fine. And besides, if it failed, what would I have lost? I would humbly suggest that perhaps this might be an opportunity for you to learn something new.
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Superglue is the wrong thing because if the bridge is cracked that badly you need to make a new bridge. WHEN that one fails (and it will, because the tension on the bridge is in the worst possible axis for superglue) you are going to have to take it off and make a new one anyway. Every time you remove the bridge, you are doing damage to the top. We don't do half ass repairs, and in that situation not making a new bridge is a half ass repair. There is no way to guaranty that a bridge which has been glued together like that will last, and they seldom will.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Super glue is wrong for any bridge repair. If you simply MUST keep the original bridge and there are cases where that is appropriate then the way to go is fresh and thin hide glue. Yes it does require some extra skills but thats life. I have repaired some old parlor guitars and such where the original bridge needed or should be kept. Super glue is not the way to go.

In your case a new bridge would be the best option.
 
muttley600 said:
Super glue is wrong for any bridge repair.
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Well, it's the only thing for regluing bridges on the Martin X guitars.

Although it's a bit of a stretch to call them guitars.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
TelePaul said:
Are they the Mexican ones? Why are the bridges on those different?
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The ones with Formica tops (what they call HPL). Things like the DX1, the Cowboy X, etc. Wood glues don't stick the the Formica.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
As to replacing the original bridge instead of gluing it:

I have been unable to find a tenor (4-pin) bridge. If I could have (and believe me, I have looked, and looked, and looked) I would have much prefered to replace the original one. Yes, the re-glued bridge may come apart some day- when it does, I will look again. And probably not fine one then, either. Mean while, I had two choices- 1. Glue the original bridge back together and use it, or 2. Use a bigger, 6-string bridge that would look goofy on a tenor, and would have scarred up a bigger area. I chose #1, because I did NOT want to glue an over-sized bridge on the top.

If you know of a source of tenor bridges, by all means, let me know. I suspect you do not- re-read my earlier post and you will see I solicited sources for one, with no response from anyone here.
 
stevieb said:
As to replacing the original bridge instead of gluing it:

I have been unable to find a tenor (4-pin) bridge. If I could have (and believe me, I have looked, and looked, and looked) I would have much prefered to replace the original one. Yes, the re-glued bridge may come apart some day- when it does, I will look again. And probably not fine one then, either. Mean while, I had two choices- 1. Glue the original bridge back together and use it, or 2. Use a bigger, 6-string bridge that would look goofy on a tenor, and would have scarred up a bigger area. I chose #1, because I did NOT want to glue an over-sized bridge on the top.

If you know of a source of tenor bridges, by all means, let me know. I suspect you do not- re-read my earlier post and you will see I solicited sources for one, with no response from anyone here.
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Your third and best option is to make a new one. Seriously it's not that hard.
 
muttley600 said:
Your third and best option is to make a new one. Seriously it's not that hard.
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Yup.

You buy apiece of rosewood or ebony, use the old one to trace the outline (if you want to use superglue to glue it back together for that, it makes perfect sense), and make the new bridge. It takes our guys about an hour and a half. If your not as comfortable with a belt sander as we are, you will take a little longer, but it's not that hard and it's a lot of fun (by the way, if you don't have one of THESE, get one. It will be the most used tool you own - ours gets used 10-1 over all the other tools combined, except maybe the drill press).

It's even more fun showing off the bridge you made to your friends.




Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
Yup.

You buy apiece of rosewood or ebony, use the old one to trace the outline (if you want to use superglue to glue it back together for that, it makes perfect sense), and make the new bridge. It takes our guys about an hour and a half. If your not as comfortable with a belt sander as we are, you will take a little longer, but it's not that hard and it's a lot of fun (by the way, if you don't have one of THESE, get one. It will be the most used tool you own - ours gets used 10-1 over all the other tools combined, except maybe the drill press).

It's even more fun showing off the bridge you made to your friends.





Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

Damn. So, how do you mic that sucker up?
 
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