next piece in my puzzle

[corban]

If anybody wants to put their two cents in on what my next gear improvement should be, here's your chance. I record a mixture between middle of the road rock bands, folk singers, and my own indie rock music. I have this gear:

MICS

1 CAD M179
1 Studio Projects B1
2 MXL 603s
1 ATM AT25 (decent on kicks and toms)
1 Apex 420 (shitty LDC)
2 Shure sm57
1 Shure Dyne
1 Audix I5
1 Shure SM7

PREAMPS
1 eight channel m-audio octane
1 m-audio DMP3
1 Electro-Harmonix 12AY7 Tube Pre


My guess is that a ribbon mic is in order. I record a lot of piano for my own stuff though and I've heard the AKG 414s are golden for that. Also I have tentative plans to DIY a Great River MP2 so if that works I'll have a nice pre going on.

 

[hairylarry]

omnis

corban,

I notice no omnis. Omnis are substantially different than cardiods. They are generally better room mics. A pair of spaced omnis is a great way to get a stereo image. They do not have proximity effect so they can be brought in real close without getting boomy. And at least some omnis are very flat over their whole frequency range compared to most cardiods that are peaky somewhere.

Also omnis are very inexpensive. Vintage omnis can be very high quality. Dynamic omnis can handle high sound pressure levels. Modern condensor omnis can be had for a song too. Of course you can pay more for the best but omnis under $50 can be very good indeed.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

 

[antichef]

On that note, you might consider a pair of omni capsules for your 603s, if you like the 603s, like:

http://cgi.ebay.com/STEREO-PAIR-OMN...39:1|66:2|65:12|240:1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

or a pair of Naiant X-Qs -- I think I like those better.

That said, I dig cheap ribbons, but make sure you get one with a 2 micron ribbon and not a 6 micron ribbon. I was a Fry's the other day, and they were selling Nady RSM-5s with 2 micron ribbons, for seventy or eighty bucks. A transformer replacement is nice, too.

 

[hairylarry]

cheap ribbons

antichef,

I'm looking for cheap ribbons myself. I have read good about the Apex 205s. Also the Nady's you mentioned. The price on the Nadys is certainly right.

But since I don't have any ribbons yet I'm hesitant to recommend one. But I'm not at all hesitant to listen to recommendations.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

 

[dgatwood]

That said, I dig cheap ribbons, but make sure you get one with a 2 micron ribbon and not a 6 micron ribbon. I was a Fry's the other day, and they were selling Nady RSM-5s with 2 micron ribbons, for seventy or eighty bucks. A transformer replacement is nice, too.

Which Fry's? The one in Sunnyvale barely even sells XLR cables....

BTW, looks like MF & GC are selling them for $80 now, too.

 

[antichef]

Which Fry's? The one in Sunnyvale barely even sells XLR cables....

The one on the North Freeway in Houston, TX. I haven't looked in the other ones in the area. I wouldn't have mentioned it if it didn't seem a little unusual, but there they are -- like 4 or 5 on the shelf. If I didn't have a few ACM ribbons (and a couple more on the way), I'd'a picked one up.

 

[antichef]

But since I don't have any ribbons yet I'm hesitant to recommend one. But I'm not at all hesitant to listen to recommendations.

And I encourage you to look for recommendations from folks who have expensive ribbons, too (which means other people) -- but anyway, I've been happy with the TnC Group Buy ones that I got - I've generally replaced the transformers, both with Lundahl and Edcor. I bet some of them go on the aftermarket after the deliveries are made from this GB. I bought a Nady RSM-4, but it has a 6 micron ribbon, and I can't get it to sound as good as the ACM ones, even though it should, based on a visual comparison, so I figure it's the ribbon thickness. The packaging on the Nady's is pretty up front about the ribbon thickness, so look for it there. One thing worth pointing out about both the ACM ones and the Nady -- they all seemed to have the same transformer, and they were pretty high-output - much more than I expected - pretty much like a SM57. The Lundahl transformers, for instance, reduced the output quite a bit, but improved the sound.

 

[hairylarry]

ribbons

And I encourage you to look for recommendations from folks who have expensive ribbons, too (which means other people) -- but anyway, I've been happy with the TnC Group Buy ones that I got - I've generally replaced the transformers, both with Lundahl and Edcor. I bet some of them go on the aftermarket after the deliveries are made from this GB. I bought a Nady RSM-4, but it has a 6 micron ribbon, and I can't get it to sound as good as the ACM ones, even though it should, based on a visual comparison, so I figure it's the ribbon thickness. The packaging on the Nady's is pretty up front about the ribbon thickness, so look for it there. One thing worth pointing out about both the ACM ones and the Nady -- they all seemed to have the same transformer, and they were pretty high-output - much more than I expected - pretty much like a SM57. The Lundahl transformers, for instance, reduced the output quite a bit, but improved the sound.

antichef,

I appreciate the info. That's why I've been hesitant to jump into the ribbons. Cheap ribbons are expensive mics to me and expensive ribbons are unaffordable.

I think of all my mics I've only paid over $100 for two of them. But I never regretted buying them. I'm pretty careful with my money since I took an early retirement and I don't have any.

I'm sure I could spend $100 on a ribbon mic and not be happy. So I'm trying to do my research.

What I have found is that in any type of microphone there are always some that are a lot better than they ought to be. And I don't just mean for the price. Some of my best sounding mics period have been very inexpensive to buy.

So it's important for me to know that the 2 micron ribbons sound better than the 6 micron ribbons and that most chinese ribbons come with the 6 micron ribbons. I mean it stands to reason but when someone who has heard the mics explains it it really helps put things in context.

I use DMP2 preamps again based on the highest possible quality in my under $100 price range. And I have read that if your preamp works with an SM57 it will probably handle a chinese ribbon. I also have a Studio Projects preamp which is also very clean but has only one channel. I think it does have a little bit more gain than the DMP2. Still I think they both would be on the low end for boosting a 2 micron ribbon.

I have fixed some of my microphones and I have a soldering iron but I have never done any mods. I am hesitant to burn up a $100 bill. So I would rather buy a ribbon that doesn't have to be modded.

Again, only from what I've read I thought maybe the Apex 205 would fit the bill. They are relatively inexpensive to buy even though you hardly ever see one used. And although I have pretty good confidence buying used dynamics I'm not so sure I want to buy a used ribbon.

Microphones fascinate me and I actually use them a lot. Some would think my obsessing over these things is weird but it's like when I bought a hundred dollar car and quizzed the guy about how good it ran. I told him, "I know it's only a hundred dollar car but I have to get to work and I don't have another hundred dollars for another car."

So thanks for your help and keep it coming. I'm more than glad to help others when I can and I do have hands on experience with a lot of cheap microphones so I don't feel bad about sucking up the knowledge where I can get it.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

 

[dgatwood]

The modern ribbons have about the same output level as an SM57/58, so don't worry too much about gain.

With any of the Chinese ribbons, I would suggest modding them with Lundahl LL2912 (or 2911) transformers, though. The transformer is about a $70 investment and really brings the mic to life. The stock Chinese transformers are pretty universally bad, with lots of ringing and poor high frequency response. That applies to basically every ribbon mic out there except Royer and Beyer.

The mod is pretty easy. If you've soldered a wire back on a mic cable, you can do a transformer swap. In the smaller mics, it is pretty much a matter of cutting the wires on the factory transformer and soldering them to the wires on the replacement. In some of the bigger ribbon mics, it involves a pointless printed circuit board whose sole purpose is to avoid soldering one wire to another. Either way, same difference. It's the most trivial mod you can do.

If you want a mic that doesn't need mods, Shinybox has pre-modded ribbons available, but they're pricey... like you could buy three mics and mod them for what one of theirs costs.

 

[corban]

cool, some nice tips here. I'm gonna look into a ribbon, and I was already thinking about the omni caps for my 603s. My CAD also has multipattern so it's an omni as well. Sure wish I had got in on that group buy.

 

[hairylarry]

Ribbon mod

The modern ribbons have about the same output level as an SM57/58, so don't worry too much about gain.

With any of the Chinese ribbons, I would suggest modding them with Lundahl LL2912 (or 2911) transformers, though. The transformer is about a $70 investment and really brings the mic to life. The stock Chinese transformers are pretty universally bad, with lots of ringing and poor high frequency response. That applies to basically every ribbon mic out there except Royer and Beyer.

The mod is pretty easy. If you've soldered a wire back on a mic cable, you can do a transformer swap. In the smaller mics, it is pretty much a matter of cutting the wires on the factory transformer and soldering them to the wires on the replacement. In some of the bigger ribbon mics, it involves a pointless printed circuit board whose sole purpose is to avoid soldering one wire to another. Either way, same difference. It's the most trivial mod you can do.

If you want a mic that doesn't need mods, Shinybox has pre-modded ribbons available, but they're pricey... like you could buy three mics and mod them for what one of theirs costs.

Wow, $70 for a little transformer. That helps me understand why the mods cost so much. Looks like it's mostly parts.

And you said the cheap transformers are universal in the Chinese ribbons. So this basically adds $100 to the price of the mic. But it could come in increments.

Any input on this? Is anyone enjoying any unmodded $100 ribbon mics? Is there a $100 solution or is the additional expense of the mod essential? Is there a less expensive transformer that could help control cost on the whole project? Can we produce a modded mic for $125? $150? I just know someone here has done a lot more research on this than I have. A link would be fine.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

 

[antichef]

Is there a less expensive transformer that could help control cost on the whole project?

It sounds different from the Lundahl, but I noticed a big improvement also when I used an Edcor transformer - it was about $25, I think. I'm not going to say one is better or worse, but they're definitely different. The Lundahl is smoother and lower output, perhaps with more high freq detail, despite the smootherness (truth is, my sub-optimal monitoring/listening environment should make me keep my mouth shut more -- working on that). I generally use the Edcor-equipped mics for heavy sounding guitar cabs, and think they're great for that.

edit: a little less: http://www.edcorusa.com/products/transformers/rmx/rmx1.html, and my experience with them has been pleasant

editedit: and it sounds like Chance & company are getting custom made transformers ready, too, so stay tuned.