Difference Between Ceramic and Alnico Speakers

[starbuck26]

Hey,

I'm about to start tricking my Fender Hot Rod DeVille... I'm reading tons of specs and reviews of different speakers, but I have to admit to myself (and to you) that I have no idea what the difference between a ceramic speaker and an alnico speaker is. Other than the price.

Any help? Advice?

Love,
Starbuck

 

[soundchaser59]

The price is higher because the cobalt is harder to get for the ALuminum/NIckel/CObalt alloy the magnet assembly is made from.

The alnico assembly does not have the same hot response that the lighter weight ceramic ferrite magnets have. The ceramic assembly is able to generate slightly more power with the same amount of input. So the ceramic is louder and perhaps a bit more immediate or edgy, perhaps a bit brighter. The alnico is smoother and not as loud, but a small volume pump and you are ready to go. You would have to hear them side by side to really notice any difference in the loudness. I'm not a scientist, I only play one on tv, so dont quote me on this! But these are, imo, accurate impressions.

But you can readily hear the difference in timbre, and you can feel the difference in response when you play the strings, especially as you go into the higher power rated speakers with bigger magnets and bigger voice coils.

I've heard Eminence has one or two alnico models but I dont know which ones they are. Webers are nice, the 12 and 15 inch Blue Dog being my personal favorite from Kokomo.

But in the under $300 dollar range, nothing beats alnico Tone Tubbys. The prices are going up, so they were under $300 last year, not sure what they are now. They are hands down better than any other speaker in the same price range or lower. They are best in pairs or quads, not singles (as is most any speaker!). My best results have been with Tone Tubbys first, Webers second, in closed back ported cabs.

I am, however, very close to ordering a Jensen Jet Blackbird for my empty 1x12.

I should mention that the Eminence Cannabis Rex is worthy of note as one of the most authentic sounding ceramic speakers, if you cant afford the alnicos. Runs neck and neck with the Weber ceramics, Blue Dog and Michigan in particular.

The other trivial point is the ceramic magnets will last much longer than the alnicos. Alnico magnets will eventually lose their flux, but probably not in my lifetime!

 

[eyema_believer]

Yep... what he said .....

 

[Gear_Junky]

Alnico magnets will eventually lose their flux, but probably not in my lifetime!

that's true, as also with guitar pickups, but that's gradual and as far as i read (at least with pickups) - actually desireable as the sound mellows out. you know those vintage pickups that fetch hundreds of dollars?

i don't see why the same wouldn't happen to speakers - the general difference descriptions seem to be about the same as with pickups (ceramic = edgier, alnico = smoother, etc.)

i love alnico pickups (the only kind i play) and i also have an alnico speaker in my SCXD - a Jensen p10r. I really haven't compared it to a similar quality ceramic, but i like it.

i think that it's probably a considerable component of what "that vintage tone" is, whether fender or "british", etc.

 

[starbuck26]

The price is higher because the cobalt is harder to get for the ALuminum/NIckel/CObalt alloy the magnet assembly is made from.

The alnico assembly does not have the same hot response that the lighter weight ceramic ferrite magnets have. The ceramic assembly is able to generate slightly more power with the same amount of input. So the ceramic is louder and perhaps a bit more immediate or edgy, perhaps a bit brighter. The alnico is smoother and not as loud, but a small volume pump and you are ready to go. You would have to hear them side by side to really notice any difference in the loudness. I'm not a scientist, I only play one on tv, so dont quote me on this! But these are, imo, accurate impressions.

But you can readily hear the difference in timbre, and you can feel the difference in response when you play the strings, especially as you go into the higher power rated speakers with bigger magnets and bigger voice coils.

I've heard Eminence has one or two alnico models but I dont know which ones they are. Webers are nice, the 12 and 15 inch Blue Dog being my personal favorite from Kokomo.

But in the under $300 dollar range, nothing beats alnico Tone Tubbys. The prices are going up, so they were under $300 last year, not sure what they are now. They are hands down better than any other speaker in the same price range or lower. They are best in pairs or quads, not singles (as is most any speaker!). My best results have been with Tone Tubbys first, Webers second, in closed back ported cabs.

I am, however, very close to ordering a Jensen Jet Blackbird for my empty 1x12.

I should mention that the Eminence Cannabis Rex is worthy of note as one of the most authentic sounding ceramic speakers, if you cant afford the alnicos. Runs neck and neck with the Weber ceramics, Blue Dog and Michigan in particular.

The other trivial point is the ceramic magnets will last much longer than the alnicos. Alnico magnets will eventually lose their flux, but probably not in my lifetime!

That was the most concise, studied answer I could have asked for. You cleared it all up.

From your description, I think I'm to go with Ceramic. More my style.

 

[ranjam]

The price is higher because the cobalt is harder to get for the ALuminum/NIckel/CObalt alloy the magnet assembly is made from.

The alnico assembly does not have the same hot response that the lighter weight ceramic ferrite magnets have. The ceramic assembly is able to generate slightly more power with the same amount of input. So the ceramic is louder and perhaps a bit more immediate or edgy, perhaps a bit brighter. The alnico is smoother and not as loud, but a small volume pump and you are ready to go. You would have to hear them side by side to really notice any difference in the loudness. I'm not a scientist, I only play one on tv, so dont quote me on this! But these are, imo, accurate impressions.

But you can readily hear the difference in timbre, and you can feel the difference in response when you play the strings, especially as you go into the higher power rated speakers with bigger magnets and bigger voice coils.

The other trivial point is the ceramic magnets will last much longer than the alnicos. Alnico magnets will eventually lose their flux, but probably not in my lifetime!

Oh, oh. You had better watch what you say, and separate fact from wishful thinking and marketing hype. Someone will use this against you.

FACT #1: A magnet simply provides the emf force for the voice coil. Sound does not travel through any magnet material. THE CAUSE AND EFFECT OF HAVE A LARGER CERAMIC MAGNET IS A HORSE OF A DIFFERENT COLOR! This is because.........

FACT #2: The 'hot response' is perceived because people compare apples to oranges. A 16 oz. Ceramic magnet does not have the same flux density as 16 oz. of Alnico, and that's not even taking into account the differences between cast and sintered Alnico. If you have the same Gauss level, then we are comparing apples to apples, or at leat a MacIntosh to a Granny Smith. This is difficult to compare because.....

FACT #3: You didn't see many 100-watt Alnico speakers. Those low-wattage Alnico speakers you did see in your vintage Fender had a smaller plate gap and a small diameter voice coil. And they had nice felt dust caps. Now try and find a 15-watt Ceramic speaker. You'll have better luck finding a 100-watt Ceramic speaker with an aluminum dust cap, a 2" voice coil, and other differences.

FACT #4: You can hear differences in higher efficiency speakers, doped surrounds or raw surrounds, how much doping, smooth or ribbed cones, etc. And most people look beyond all that and focus on the magnet. Yeah, it's that Alnico that made it sound warmer .

If you could make an identical speaker; the same paper, the same surround, the same plate gap, the same voice coil, the same cast frame, but made one with an Alnico magnet and one with a ceramic magnet, I really doubt you'd hear balck and white differences. I'll wager a wooden nickle it would at best be more subtle, like say plain vanilla to French vanilla. And that's a big maybe.
Use the speaker that has the properties you want. If you want all amplifier distortion, and the speaker just to accurately reproduce that, then get a JBL, or some high powered, high efficiency, ribbed, doped speaker. If you want speaker distortion, maybe some 'cone cry', then you want something else entirely. Clear as mud? You're welcome . Now, where's my flame-proof suit?

 

[soundchaser59]

Oh, oh. You had better watch what you say, and separate fact from wishful thinking and marketing hype. Someone will use this against you.

FACT #1: A magnet simply provides the emf force for the voice coil. Sound does not travel through any magnet material. THE CAUSE AND EFFECT OF HAVE A LARGER CERAMIC MAGNET IS A HORSE OF A DIFFERENT COLOR! This is because.........

FACT #2: The 'hot response' is perceived because people compare apples to oranges. A 16 oz. Ceramic magnet does not have the same flux density as 16 oz. of Alnico, and that's not even taking into account the differences between cast and sintered Alnico. If you have the same Gauss level, then we are comparing apples to apples, or at leat a MacIntosh to a Granny Smith. This is difficult to compare because.....

FACT #3: You didn't see many 100-watt Alnico speakers. Those low-wattage Alnico speakers you did see in your vintage Fender had a smaller plate gap and a small diameter voice coil. And they had nice felt dust caps. Now try and find a 15-watt Ceramic speaker. You'll have better luck finding a 100-watt Ceramic speaker with an aluminum dust cap, a 2" voice coil, and other differences.

FACT #4: You can hear differences in higher efficiency speakers, doped surrounds or raw surrounds, how much doping, smooth or ribbed cones, etc. And most people look beyond all that and focus on the magnet. Yeah, it's that Alnico that made it sound warmer .

If you could make an identical speaker; the same paper, the same surround, the same plate gap, the same voice coil, the same cast frame, but made one with an Alnico magnet and one with a ceramic magnet, I really doubt you'd hear balck and white differences. I'll wager a wooden nickle it would at best be more subtle, like say plain vanilla to French vanilla. And that's a big maybe.
Use the speaker that has the properties you want. If you want all amplifier distortion, and the speaker just to accurately reproduce that, then get a JBL, or some high powered, high efficiency, ribbed, doped speaker. If you want speaker distortion, maybe some 'cone cry', then you want something else entirely. Clear as mud? You're welcome . Now, where's my flame-proof suit?

Best you can do (on my budget) is get a ceramic Tone Tubby and an alnico Tone Tubby with identical cabs and hear for yourself. or get a ceramic Blue Dog and an alnico Blue Dog and try those side by side.

Could I tell you which is which while blindfolded? Maybe... maybe not. With practice hearing both side by side day after day, yes I believe I could learn to hear the difference.

Can average ordinary people hear the difference when played side by side? ABSOLUTELY! You can see their eyebrows raise and their eyes widen and their faces lengthen, as you realize they were expecting not to hear any difference. Been there, done that.....

 

[ggunn]

Best you can do (on my budget) is get a ceramic Tone Tubby and an alnico Tone Tubby with identical cabs and hear for yourself. or get a ceramic Blue Dog and an alnico Blue Dog and try those side by side.

Could I tell you which is which while blindfolded? Maybe... maybe not. With practice hearing both side by side day after day, yes I believe I could learn to hear the difference.

Can average ordinary people hear the difference when played side by side? ABSOLUTELY! You can see their eyebrows raise and their eyes widen and their faces lengthen, as you realize they were expecting not to hear any difference. Been there, done that.....

I think that his point is that there may very well be other diffs between an alnico Blue Dog and a ceramic Blue Dog (for instance) than just the material the magnet is made out of. If that's the case, what is making the difference you hear?

OTOH, a difference between differing magnet materials is how much of the flux goes through the magnet and how much goes outside of it. This affects how quickly the magnetic effect falls off as your point of reference moves away from the magnet and therefore influences the way a voice coil will move under its influence. How that relates to the difference between the sound of an alnico speaker and a ceramic one, however, I haven't the foggiest.

 

[soundchaser59]

have to ask Ted Weber, or call the folks at A Brown Sound. Both camps are pretty friendly and informative.


The magent itself doesn't conduct any sound?? DOH!

Oh My GAWD!! I have to reinvent my entire world paradigm now.....



I think most of the readers - especially the ones who play electric guitar - will know what I was saying or not saying. It's not really a good topic for hair splitting. Buy the speakers and the identical cabs and do your own test. That's what I did, and I'm glad I have all alnico speakers in my house now.

 

[Gear_Junky]

...it would at best be more subtle, like say plain vanilla to French vanilla...

if by that you mean "artificial vanillin" vs. real natural vanilla, the difference is subtle, but important. i'm always ok with artificial vanilla flavor - it's much closer to the real thing than artificial strawberry or orange (yuk!), but i can both tell and do prefer natural vanilla.

seriously, though, what you're saying sounds about right, but then, if you can't really find comparably spec'ed speakers in both magnets, then even though it's not DUE to the magnet, it's still fair to say that {generally} alnico-equipped speakers will be more "vintage" (warmer/sweeter, etc.) and ceramic - more modern (tighter, crisper or whatever). don't matter to us guitarists as long as we can get what we want

however, ceramic magnet pickups on guitar - i can't stand that!

 

[antichef]

however, ceramic magnet pickups on guitar - i can't stand that!

I keep trying to put refrigerator magnets on my guitar, but they won't stick.

[but I don't mean to interrupt - great thread]

 

[Gear_Junky]

I keep trying to put refrigerator magnets on my guitar, but they won't stick.

[but I don't mean to interrupt - great thread]

great idea! i'm gonna put the stock ceramic pickups that came out of my guitars on my refrigerator! they already sound so "cold", maybe they'll protect the food if there's a blackout again. they're also sterile, so there'll be no cross-contamination LOL.

 

[ranjam]

I doubt we'll ever see two speakers that are identical in construction other than the magnet material. Unlike guitar pickups, there are plenty of ceramic magnet speakers that I really like. Would you turn down a set of original Celestion 'greenbacks'? Having said that, a good Deluxe Reverb with an Alnico Eminence Red Fang works better than Viagra for me.
I always remind myself the magnet is just there to act as an emf to the voice coil, and the voice coil acts like a piston in reaction to the charge of the permanent maget. I always think the voice coil is the real secret to the tone. Well, the cone moves the air that ends up being sound waves, so it's kinda important too.
In the end, there are Alnico magnet speakers that I would trade my wife for, and there are ceramic magnet speakers that I would trade my mother-in-law for. It's a win-win .