Ceriatone

[monkie]

Anyone here tried one or own one? They have some great reviews on these over at Harmony Central. Many players claim that these produce some of the best tones in the world. I'd like to try one myself; as a matter of fact, I want to build one. They're not that expensive compared to others that have already been built complete, with tubes. I'm on a cash saving mission.

 

[Light]

Well, I haven't made one of their kits, but I've made another. It's not too hard, IF you are good with a soldering iron and have a basic understanding of electronics. Just remember to be extremely careful, because you could kill yourself in there.

As to the Ceriatone, I've tried one that a friend has (they built it). It was one of the Dumble copies, and I can't say that I was particularly impressed. It was well built, and the insides were pretty clean; not Hiwatt clean, but pretty clean.

Oh, and their prices are deceptive. Yes, they are cheap, but they have to be shipped from Asia, so they are more expensive than you think. I would strongly suggest getting a a Weber kit over a Ceriatone, as I think the quality is equal, and with shipping costs they are probably very similar in price - plus, Ted Weber makes great speakers.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[monkie]

Well, I haven't made one of their kits, but I've made another. It's not too hard, IF you are good with a soldering iron and have a basic understanding of electronics. Just remember to be extremely careful, because you could kill yourself in there.

As to the Ceriatone, I've tried one that a friend has (they built it). It was one of the Dumble copies, and I can't say that I was particularly impressed. It was well built, and the insides were pretty clean; not Hiwatt clean, but pretty clean.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I heard they are clones; how good are they compared to the originals in your opinion? In particular, I want to know the comparisons between the Marshall clones to the original. I've read reviews at Harmony Central and many players prefer the clones over the originals. The said that it's got one of the best tones around. Any ideas on that?

 

[famous beagle]

I heard they are clones; how good are they compared to the originals in your opinion? In particular, I want to know the comparisons between the Marshall clones to the original. I've read reviews at Harmony Central and many players prefer the clones over the originals. The said that it's got one of the best tones around. Any ideas on that?

I'm actually in the middle of building a Weber clone of an 18-watt marshall 1974 model. (That's just the model number--not the year they were in production. The 1974 Marshall amp was in production during the late 60s. I have no idea where Marshall got their model-numbering system, but I can't make heads or tails of it.)

This is the new Marshall reissue of that model.

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Marshall-1974X-Handwired-18W-1x12-Combo-Amp?sku=482706

Anyway, after hearing someone else's Weber clone of this amp, I decided to build my own. It killed that much. However, I'm building a head/cab version with a 2x10 cab. (The original Marshall was available in 1x12, 2x10, and 2x12 configurations.)

I'm doing the whole thing from scratch (building my own cabinets and all), and it looks as though with everything, it's going to cost me around $800. That's including some upgrades from the Weber kit, the most expensive of which were the GE NOS tubes.

I'm also replacing the jacks, switches, and pilot lamp because I've heard bad things about them, although my friend used them in his amp and hasn't had any problems in over a year.

I've never played an original Marshall 1974, but I played this handwired reissue (1974x) at a local store. It sounded amazing, but the Weber clone sounded at least as good to me. I couldn't A/B them, so I can't make a direct comparison.

But what I can tell you is that I did not leave the guitar store after playing the 1974x reissue thinking "Damn, that clone isn't doing the job. This is what a real Marshall sounds like!"

I left that store thinking, "Oh yeah ... I remember how good that clone sounded now, and I can't wait to get mine!"

 

[famous beagle]

I heard they are clones; how good are they compared to the originals in your opinion? In particular, I want to know the comparisons between the Marshall clones to the original. I've read reviews at Harmony Central and many players prefer the clones over the originals. The said that it's got one of the best tones around. Any ideas on that?

I'll add to this by saying that, one of the most important benefits of building your own is how much you learn about it, and how much you're able to then tweak things to suit your taste, make repairs, etc.

Besides the money you save (which was ... what ... $1400 in my case compared to the reissue?), this was my favorite part of it. It's a lot of fun (IMO), and you can really take pride in a job well done.

You do have to be careful though, obviously. As Light said, there are fatal voltages present (not until after the first time you fire it up, of course), and you need to make sure you know how to discharge the amp before you work on it.

 

[Light]

I heard they are clones; how good are they compared to the originals in your opinion? In particular, I want to know the comparisons between the Marshall clones to the original. I've read reviews at Harmony Central and many players prefer the clones over the originals. The said that it's got one of the best tones around. Any ideas on that?

Well, yeah, all of their stuff is clones of old amps. Better than the original? I doubt it. One problem I have with most of the companies making kits is they have a tendency to go with components I consider to be internet snake oil (Sprauge TVA filter caps, Orange drops or Mallory caps, carbon composite resistors), all of which can add noise, have no effect on the tone, and raises the cost of the parts while making them less reliable. Ceriatone is one of those companies. You will hear all over the internet that these things are better, and it's just not true. Hell, some of them weren't even the best stuff when it was out (but it was cheap). There is modern stuff that is much better, but everyone assumes (incorrectly) that it sounds different.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[famous beagle]

Well, yeah, all of their stuff is clones of old amps. Better than the original? I doubt it. One problem I have with most of the companies making kits is they have a tendency to go with components I consider to be internet snake oil (Sprauge TVA filter caps, Orange drops or Mallory caps, carbon composite resistors), all of which can add noise, have no effect on the tone, and raises the cost of the parts while making them less reliable. Ceriatone is one of those companies. You will hear all over the internet that these things are better, and it's just not true. Hell, some of them weren't even the best stuff when it was out (but it was cheap). There is modern stuff that is much better, but everyone assumes (incorrectly) that it sounds different.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Well, while there are probably plenty of snake oil components, it's been proven that carbon comp resistors are not that --- at least, when used in high voltage spots. Yes, they are noiser than metal film and even carbon film, but, when used in spots with high voltage, they actually distort a little bit in a way that we like, and that does alter the tone.

Granted it's certainly a very subtle difference, and it's possible that it's not even apparent to many people. But to say that they don't alter the tone is simply not true. Or, I should say, when used in high voltage spots, such as plate resistors.

Yes, using carbon comp resistors in a pedal or something is total nonsense. But it's not total nonsense in amps.

You're certainly right that the reason they used many of those things at the time was due to their price and availability. Fender, Marshall, and Vox weren't boutique companies. They were the working man amps of the day. Not to say that they didn't have quality products, but they weren't boutique, high-end stuff.

 

[ggunn]

Well, while there are probably plenty of snake oil components, it's been proven that carbon comp resistors are not that --- at least, when used in high voltage spots.

Can you provide some of this proof? I don't know one way or the other, but I'd like to see the data.

 

[famous beagle]

Can you provide some of this proof? I don't know one way or the other, but I'd like to see the data.

It's because they have a (relatively) high voltage coefficient of resistance. This just means that the resistance varies with different voltage across it. With enough voltage across it, the resistor will distort in a pleasing way.

Here's a fairly concise article that does a good job of explaining it:

http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/carbon_comp/carboncomp.htm

 

[Light]

It's because they have a (relatively) high voltage coefficient of resistance. This just means that the resistance varies with different voltage across it. With enough voltage across it, the resistor will distort in a pleasing way.

Here's a fairly concise article that does a good job of explaining it:

http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/carbon_comp/carboncomp.htm

About the only guy I've ever heard make a decent sounding claim on this stuff. Here's the problem - the places where he says it makes an audible difference (high voltage areas - PI's and Poweramps, basically) are where they make the most extra noise. They are also NOT the places where most folks will tell you to put them. The places you are told to put them are generally the places where they add the least additional noise (where they are out of the signal path - Cathode resistors, input resistors, etc.), but also make no perceptible difference in tone - the input resistor goes to ground, so anything that goes through it is lost - and at 1 meg not much is going through it at any frequency!

Sorry, but not for me. I'm to the point now where all my resistors are a minimum of 2W metal films. They are quieter, and they sound just as good.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[famous beagle]

About the only guy I've ever heard make a decent sounding claim on this stuff. Here's the problem - the places where he says it makes an audible difference (high voltage areas - PI's and Poweramps, basically) are where they make the most extra noise. They are also NOT the places where most folks will tell you to put them. The places you are told to put them are generally the places where they add the least additional noise (where they are out of the signal path - Cathode resistors, input resistors, etc.), but also make no perceptible difference in tone - the input resistor goes to ground, so anything that goes through it is lost - and at 1 meg not much is going through it at any frequency!

Sorry, but not for me. I'm to the point now where all my resistors are a minimum of 2W metal films. They are quieter, and they sound just as good.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Well, it's just a matter of preference really. I have a co-worker that builds his own amps called "Fullertones." They're basically Fender tweed copies pretty much, but he's changed up a thing here and there.

Anyway, he builds with top of the line components throughout (has his own trannys custom wound and everything), but he also uses carbon comp resistors throughout, because he's a Fender freak. His amps are hardly above my noisy threshold, but maybe they are to other people.

His amps sound absolutely amazing. Would they sound just as amazing if they had metal film? I dunno. But the point is they sound amazing now, and I don't think the amps are particularly noisy. But others may think so. My Strat is shielded and is quieter than a LP hum. Different strokes...

Anyway, like I said, I'm not on a crusade in favor of carbon comps. I was just stating that to say they have no effect on the tone at all is just not true.