Which Mic is better for singing AND flute

[IllinoisSinger]

Hi all - noob here, spent all morning reading posts & admin suggestions etc. I saw a post by "TimOBrien" that suggested a rookie like myself FIRST by "Home recording for Musicians", which I promptly ordered (by the way, is that the SAME Tim O Brien I saw with Sam Bush in Iowa City!?). I think I'd still like to throw this question out there for some qualified feedback.

I read enough of the other posts to know that "which mic is the best" is really a dumb question. So here's what I'm dealing with:

• I'm dirt poor - so when I talk about an inexpensive mic, I MEAN inexpensive.
• However, I do need the best quality I can fit in my budget - under $100 (w/shipping)
• I'll be running CuBase SE until I get my feet really wet and feel the need to upgrade to SX - on an XP operated PC
• Predominantly what I'll be doing is laying down vocals for an already existing track (band sends me an mp3, I record the vocal, send them a WAV of my vocal track).
• I'm not a screamo/growler, but I AM a metal vocalist with a pretty powerful presence
• Alternatively, I will at times lay down a vocal that is on the ultra-soft side, which brings me to the second application:
• My wife plays flute and will like to record from time to time. That'll be the only instrument other than voice we will be using the mic for (as we're currently set up - the future is yet to be determined).

So here are the three microphones I am considering. While I understand that these mic's may not be the end-all and final solution for me, I DO need the best I can get within my budget until said budget decides to grow overnight. So if there are alternatives in my price range that I've not considered, please do tell. All the prices I list include shipping (so it's an out the door price for me):

• MXL2006 - the best deal i found comes with case, shock mount, pop filter & cable for $100
• GXL2400 - A CAD mic comes with shock mount, cable and stand for $100
• AT2020 - stand alone with no extras (except a case & stand adapter) for $60

I very much appreciate any help - thanks!
Martin

 

[Seafroggys]

Find out what Ian Anderson uses.

 

[IllinoisSinger]

Ah! good call... but I'm certain whatever it is he uses will be just a smidge outside my budget

 

[Paj]

The GXL3000 is on "Secret Sale" at MF for $100, free shipping. The CAD M177 is a clean, clear and accurate mic. An SP-B1, if you can still get it for $100, would be another choice. There's a couple NAdy ribbon mics available for $100-and-under (RSM4, RSM5). The Nady 960 is essentially the same dual-pattern mic as the JoeMeek JM37DP, which works well on a variety of sources. There's absolutely nothing wrong with an SM58 for flute and/or voice, and a GXL58 from speakerrepair.com would even be less expensive.

Some of the mics I mentioned are not cardioid: tri-patterned (GXL3000), dual-patterned (Nady 960), and the ribbons are figure-8. I mentioned these for the flute. I know how a good space enhances playing the flute and you want the ambience you hear and feel on the track. My experience is that, you usually have to process this back in with cardioid mics. Figure-8 mics can be positioned to capture ambience or minimize/eliminate it. Omni mics can't help but capture it. If you like the sound of the space that you're playing the flute in, and want to get a playback that sounds like what you're hearing (without cans), try an omni and try a Naiant. It's a shame that the tube MSH-4 mics are discontinued, but a Naiant X mic and a GXL58 would come in under $100 and probably cover your needs.

Good luck,
Paj
8^)

 

[IllinoisSinger]

Paj,

Killer - thank you kindly! The SM58 (and now the GXL58) HAD crossed my mind, but I quickly dismissed it as too easy of an answer. My simple reasoning was only that I know it's my mic of choice for live settings, but perhaps not what I needed for home recording.

I gather from your suggestions that if you were in my shoes you wouldn't even put the mics I was looking at on the map?
At any rate - excellent tip. I appreciate it!

Martin

 

[TimOBrien]

(by the way, is that the SAME Tim OBrien I saw with Sam Bush in Iowa City!?)

No, I live in Florida and haven't been to Iowa in just over 20 years!

Personally, I like using dynamic mics on horns (I use a Senn MD-421 on my tenor sax) but a condenser would probably be a better choice for the higher range of a flute.

You wouldn't go wrong though having a Shure 57 or 58 (they are the same mic with a different windscreen) in your mic locker. And you'd be surprised how many old albums were made with 'em. Nothing wrong with trying them FIRST.

 

[IllinoisSinger]

Thanks TimOBrien! Even if you aren't the same bluegrass legend i thought you were!

...and my guess is Iowa hasn't changed much in the twenty years since you've been there! I know I'll be good for another twenty since my last visit there (ha ha ha)

anywho - thanks for the second motion on the Shure

Since I'll always default to it in a live setting anyway, it'll be a mic I never junk, even when I upgrade. So it's definitely a good call

Martin

 

[dgatwood]

The GXL3000 is on "Secret Sale" at MF for $100, free shipping. The CAD M177 is a clean, clear and accurate mic.

Agreed on the CAD mics being decent. Of the mics you listed, those are the only two I would recommend for vocals, though I have not personally used either. Unlike the others, CAD mics are generally neither dull sounding nor overhyped. That should make them reasonable for both flute and vocals.

BTW, the GXL3000 is easy to get for $100. MF's price sucks.

http://www.pssl.com/!VPWK!YlMYq6!dkUbgYInYw!/CAD-GXL3000-Multi-pattern-Condenser-Microphone-s
http://www.8thstreet.com/prod.asp?pid=30525&n=CAD-GXL3000
http://www.frontendaudio.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=9856

or eBay for $70
http://cgi.ebay.com/CAD-GXL3000-Pro...-GLX-3000_W0QQitemZ230277047956QQcmdZViewItem

An SP-B1, if you can still get it for $100, would be another choice.

IMHO, the Studio Projects mics sound too brittle for voice recordings.

There's a couple NAdy ribbon mics available for $100-and-under (RSM4, RSM5).

Those are both short ribbons, though, and thus not particularly good for vocals.

The Nady 960 is essentially the same dual-pattern mic as the JoeMeek JM37DP, which works well on a variety of sources.

Those mics are reportedly good for modding, but I've never heard anybody say they're wonderful as-is. AFAIK, they're pretty much stock first generation Chinese condensers with all the brittleness that comes with that.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with an SM58 for flute and/or voice, and a GXL58 from speakerrepair.com would even be less expensive.

There's plenty wrong with them. The SM58 sounds terrible on voice. People put up with it for live use because its awful midrange bump brings out vocals while cutting down on feedback. It is not a good recording mic at all. The GXL58 has a frequency response similarly tailored for live use. You don't realize how bad live mics sound until you hear them alongside a better sounding mic....

None of those mics would be good for flute, either

My experience is that, you usually have to process this back in with cardioid mics. Figure-8 mics can be positioned to capture ambience or minimize/eliminate it. Omni mics can't help but capture it.

Figure-8 mics are about halfway between omnis and cardioids in terms of room rejection. However, what you say about omni mics is simply not true when miking instruments. Omni mics can be placed much closer to an instrument because their tone doesn't change as they get closer to the sound source (proximity effect). Thus, you can actually use a sufficiently small omni mic clipped onto the end of a flute while a cardioid would have to be several feet away and will thus pick up more room noise than the clipped omni would.

If you like the sound of the space that you're playing the flute in, and want to get a playback that sounds like what you're hearing (without cans), try an omni and try a Naiant. It's a shame that the tube MSH-4 mics are discontinued....

Agreed. The MSH-4 was nice on flute. The others in the series would be good choices on flute as well, but I'd definitely point this person towards the CAD, as the MSH series have much too small a diaphragm to be good vocal mics.

 

[IllinoisSinger]

hhhmmm... ok, well for that matter I have seen the GXL2400 with somewhat similar specs for quite a bit less... typically $75 out the door (after shipping)... close enough to save $25? Or worlds apart to just put up the extra $25 for the GXL3000?

thanks so far!
Martin

 

[dgatwood]

hhhmmm... ok, well for that matter I have seen the GXL2400 with somewhat similar specs for quite a bit less... typically $75 out the door (after shipping)... close enough to save $25? Or worlds apart to just put up the extra $25 for the GXL3000?

Considering I just pointed you to the GXL3000 with a buy-it-now price of $5 less than that ($8 more than that after shipping to California from NY), yeah, I'd say it's definitely worth $8 for multi-pattern. Even if you had to buy it at $99, it's worth the extra $25 plus shipping just for the flexibility that a multi-pattern mic offers, IMHO.

 

[Paj]

Paj,

I gather from your suggestions that if you were in my shoes you wouldn't even put the mics I was looking at on the map?

Martin

Not at all. I just think that you can get the added flexibility of the GXL3000 for the same price as the 2400. I have friends that like the AT2020 but not for what you asked. I don't know much about the MXL 2006.

Dgatwood pretty much disagreed with everything I said but different opinions/experiences are what you need to hear.

Paj
8^)

 

[warlock110]

the AT 3035 is about 110 shipped, I think that might be better on voices than the AT2020.

PS: it comes with a shock mount. the AT2020 I've seen for 80 with shockmount included.

Or grab a MXL 67i, it used to be on sale for 100 but now it's 150, check out that one and the MXL 9090, they're the same mic, it's got 2 tone 1 bright and 1 normal.

 

[dgatwood]

Dgatwood pretty much disagreed with everything I said but different opinions/experiences are what you need to hear.

Not everything. I agreed with you on the CADs.

 

[zed32]

Heil PR20.

 

[Paj]

Not everything. I agreed with you on the CADs.

. . and the MSH-4

I see your point about the omni---I guess I wasn't thinking in terms of the mini-condenser instrument mics, and really up-close-and-personal with a flute and LDC has not been my favorite over the years (player's perspective).

Even though the high-end hype caveat is reasonable, I'm guessing that you don't actually have the JM37DP, RSM-4, or RSM-5. I suggested each of these mics to avoid the high-end hype. My negative experience with the SP-B1 is not high-end brittleness but what some described as "grain," which I hear sometimes in close-miked voice more than I do with instrument applications. I though that it did a good job on flute and had a fatter, rounder tone. The RSM-4 is darker-sounding and actually reminds me of an SM-57 at times. The RSM-5 has more clarity than the 4. I've found the JM37DP to be painless and an inexpensive little workhorse and the brightest of the bunch I mentioed but not overly hyped in the high end.


I also see your point about the SM58 but we're working with a $100 budget. I'd say the GXL3000 for the flexibility, the CAD M177 for the quality, or, maybe a Naiant X and what would you say to something like the EV Cobalt CO-11 or CAD CM217 condenser that MF has on sale? Or a Sennheiser e838? Or an AT27?

Paj
8^)

 

[dgatwood]

Even though the high-end hype caveat is reasonable, I'm guessing that you don't actually have the JM37DP, RSM-4, or RSM-5. I suggested each of these mics to avoid the high-end hype.

No on the Joe Meek. My comments were strictly based on what other folks have said about it over the years.

The RSM-4 is basically the same as a pair of mics I have, just different branding. AFAIK, the RSM-5 is the same mic with a different headbasket shape. I agree that they're certainly not hyped. In fact, quite the opposite. They have too little high end to be ideal for vocals. They're certainly usable, but the long ribbon mics (e.g. the Nady RSM-2 or the Apex 205 or 210) are generally better choices for vocals because of the extended high end. The long ribbon mics also have larger enclosures, so they're much easier to mod with Lundahl transformers for a really sweet high end.

My negative experience with the SP-B1 is not high-end brittleness but what some described as "grain," which I hear sometimes in close-miked voice more than I do with instrument applications.

That, too. It's all probably caused by a couple of electrolytics in the signal path.

I also see your point about the SM58 but we're working with a $100 budget. I'd say the GXL3000 for the flexibility, the CAD M177 for the quality, or, maybe a Naiant X and what would you say to something like the EV Cobalt CO-11 or CAD CM217 condenser that MF has on sale? Or a Sennheiser e838? Or an AT27?

I haven't tried any of the mics you've listed. About all I can do is guess based on the specs.

The CO-11 looks like it was tailored more for live use. I haven't seen any real specs on it to offer much of an opinion, though. My quick guess is that they'd make great tom mics, okay for vocals, but they might require some significant EQ to reduce the midrange bump.

The CM217 is an SDC designed for drum OH use. The response curve looks kind of harsh and dull at the same time. I suspect you'd probably be happier with Naiant mics than those.

The e838, like many non-ribbon dynamic mics, has limited high end response that falls off above about 10k. It would be usable for vocals, but I'd expect it to sound somewhat dull and uninspiring, much like an SM57/58.

AT27? I can't find any specs on that. You mean the ATM27? That seems to be a hypercardioid, which screams "live only" to me.

 

[Paj]

I think that the most significant difference between the RSM-4 and RSM-5 would be the ribbon itself: 6 microns thick in the 4, 2.5 microns thick in the 5. The difference in sound is distinct and audible.

Yes, ATM27HE. A live mic, indeed, but much clearer and more powerful than the 58 or e838.

Do you by any chance know of a mod for those suspected caps in the B1?

Paj
8^)

 

[dgatwood]

I think that the most significant difference between the RSM-4 and RSM-5 would be the ribbon itself: 6 microns thick in the 4, 2.5 microns thick in the 5. The difference in sound is distinct and audible.

Ah. I hadn't noticed that in the specs. The actual manufacturer builds each of those mics with both thicknesses of ribbon for different manufacturers, though I think Nady may have exclusive rights on the RSM-5 headbasket. The one I have has the thinner ribbon in the RSM-4 enclosure. The thinner ribbon is a definite win in terms of HF response, though the longer ribbon in the RSM-2 makes up for the thickness. I'd love to hear an RSM-2 reribboned with a ~2 micron ribbon, but I'm not about to try to mod that part myself.

Do you by any chance know of a mod for those suspected caps in the B1?

I haven't studied my B3 carefully, but here are some photos. The B1 is likely to look very similar except with only a single-sided capsule and a bunch of parts missing.

http://www.gatwood.net/photos/users/dgatwood/Studio Projects B3 Guts/

Disassembling this mic is more of a pain in the backside than any other mic I've ever seen. It probably would be easier if the XLR insert actually moved after you loosen the set screw all the way, but at least on mine, it does not....

Step 1: Lift the two switch cover plates straight up and off of the switches.
Step 2: Remove the three screws on the outside.
Step 3: Slide the case up a quarter inch.
Step 4: Remove all four deep set screws on either side.
Step 5: Slip the metal base piece far enough out that you can squeeze the two boards closer together so that the switches can clear the case.
Step 6: Side the guts out.

The B1 should be much easier since it should only have a switch on one side....

Now you will see the guts of the thing. Why they couldn't make the switches an eighth of an inch closer together (or the case an eighth of an inch larger in diameter) so the guts would just slide out after removing the screws and the switch plates, I will never understand. What a pain in the ass. Why do I have a feeling this was designed by somebody with deep-seated hostility towards modders?

First, the side with two connections to the capsule. This is the front side of the capsule.



If you look carefully, you can see a ceramic capacitor across the leads (seen better in the next photo). I'm not sure what effect that will have on the sound, but it strikes me as probably part of some filter, so it might have an effect. The ceramic C10 is also right next to a transistor, so there's a good chance it is in the signal path.



Next, the back side.





Anybody know what kind of capacitor C1 and C2 are? There are a bunch of those and they don't look like anything I'm used to seeing.

Finally, a couple of shots from the side.