Finish for Maple

[WhiteStrat]

By now I'm sure you've all seen metalhead28's homebuilt guitar--it's beautiful. Well I've got a much less ambitious project on my hands. I've got a 1944 Epiphone lap steel that I'm stripping and refinishing.

The old stain was so clouded it looked like brown paint. In fact I thought it was painted brown when I bought it. But it was stain and lots of top coat (whatever they used in '44) I've stripped it and it's beautiful solid maple. I left the face of the headstock as it was--I don't want to mess with the original logo. (Though I did buff and re-coat the face of the headstock--now it's a nice dark reddish brown.)

So I wan't to do the rest of the guitar in something light--even transparent so it basically looks like the wood (a touch of yellowing is ok). I just don't know the best approach. Is it an oil? Just poly? Oil with a poly topcoat?

Your input is much appreciated!

 

[Roguetitan]

Tru Oil or Tung oil either one are good finishes

I like to use tung oil for a satin finish
for a semi gloss finish the TRU Oil would be a good finish to use, Boiled linseed oil is also a good finish to use
if you are wanting a deep Hi gloss transparent finish spray it with 6 to 8 coats polyurethane.
poly urethane needs to be applied flat to prevent runs but it lays down good just don't spray it on too heavy and allow to dry completley between coats.

That is what I like to use anyway.

 

[WhiteStrat]

Thanks for the reply, rogue.

Can you put poly on top of the oil? I guess I'd like some gloss to it, and I don't if the oil will give me that. But the oil protects the wood in ways the poly by itself doesn't, right?

Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. But that's why I so appreciate the help I get from folks around here!

 

[Roguetitan]

Thanks for the reply, rogue.

Can you put poly on top of the oil? I guess I'd like some gloss to it, and I don't if the oil will give me that. But the oil protects the wood in ways the poly by itself doesn't, right?

Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. But that's why I so appreciate the help I get from folks around here!

No, I would not put poly on top of another finish, nor visa versa.
the oil will absorb into the wood more than poly but the poly is a very tough and flexible finish that probably protects the wood better than an oil type of finish that is rubbed in.

the Tru oil has a good gloss to it. You can apply multiple coats of any of the oil finishes to give a deeper gloss finish but the tru oil will give you the best results for a higher gloss finish.

 

[Light]

We've been over this a few times. Either LMI's KTM-9 or Stew-Mac's waterborne finish. Both provide good protection, are easy and quick to apply, and look good. A hard finish (such as either of those) is essential to the long term durability and stability of the instrument.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley600]

How much finishing experience do you have?

One advantage you have is that maple requires no filling. As Light said for a lacquer finish either the LMI or Stew Mac waterborne are safe and relatively easy. The only problem I find with them is that unless you are used to flatting and cutting out they are very prone to witness lines. They can be brushed on but are better with a sprayed. I'd stay away from polyurethane. An oil finish like tung is probaly not appropriate on this.

Your other choice would be Tru Oil, I've been selling the merits of Tru oil here for several reason. Don't be fooled by the name, it is a varnish finish and provides a hard gloss to semi gloss finish. It's a polymerised linseed oil with other additives that make it ideal for simple projects and it's nearly fool proof if you follow a simple routine. It's cheap and easy to apply, you just need to do some very good prep work and set aside a few weeks to build up coats that are wiped on. They do do the stuff in a spray can but that is a little harder to use. It looks great and lasts. You can also go ontop with most thing should you want to later.

The other advice I always give about these things is, whatever you do test on scrap first. If you let us know how you intend to proceed I'm sure we can give you more detailed advice.

 

[WhiteStrat]

We've been over this a few times. Either LMI's KTM-9 or Stew-Mac's waterborne finish. Both provide good protection, are easy and quick to apply, and look good. A hard finish (such as either of those) is essential to the long term durability and stability of the instrument.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Thanks Light, I'll check these out.

 

[WhiteStrat]

How much finishing experience do you have?

One advantage you have is that maple requires no filling. As Light said for a lacquer finish either the LMI or Stew Mac waterborne are safe and relatively easy. The only problem I find with them is that unless you are used to flatting and cutting out they are very prone to witness lines. They can be brushed on but are better with a sprayed. I'd stay away from polyurethane. An oil finish like tung is probaly not appropriate on this.

Your other choice would be Tru Oil, I've been selling the merits of Tru oil here for several reason. Don't be fooled by the name, it is a varnish finish and provides a hard gloss to semi gloss finish. It's a polymerised linseed oil with other additives that make it ideal for simple projects and it's nearly fool proof if you follow a simple routine. It's cheap and easy to apply, you just need to do some very good prep work and set aside a few weeks to build up coats that are wiped on. They do do the stuff in a spray can but that is a little harder to use. It looks great and lasts. You can also go ontop with most thing should you want to later.

The other advice I always give about these things is, whatever you do test on scrap first. If you let us know how you intend to proceed I'm sure we can give you more detailed advice.

Thanks Muttley. Here's some more info:

I have a fair amount of finishing experience, but with furniture, not musical instruments. All by hand--not spraying. Such will be the case with this project.

Regarding testing on scrap: should I worry about any differences between this 64 year old piece of maple and a new scrap I could pick up? Or should I try to test on an area of this piece that will be hidden (under the fretboard)? (Since I didn't make this, I have no scrap.)

How do I intend to proceed? It's mostly sanded right now. Taking it down to 600 grit. The thing is smooth as glass. And that's as far as I've gotten. I won't be applying any finish in the next week or so. My daughter's getting married this weekend--and that's got me plenty busy.

 

[Light]

Regarding testing on scrap: should I worry about any differences between this 64 year old piece of maple and a new scrap I could pick up? Or should I try to test on an area of this piece that will be hidden (under the fretboard)? (Since I didn't make this, I have no scrap.)

You're going to have to sand that 64 year old piece, so don't worry about it.

 

[WhiteStrat]

You're going to have to sand that 64 year old piece, so don't worry about it.

Actually I already have. But I'm assuming that your point is since I have to sand it, there should be no difference between it and a new piece of maple (both prepped similarly)?

 

[muttley600]

Actually I already have. But I'm assuming that your point is since I have to sand it, there should be no difference between it and a new piece of maple (both prepped similarly)?

That piece of maple you get to test on is going to be a lot older than 64 years.

Just make sure it's dry. If your after doing some fancy colour or sunburst you'd want to match the colour in the white as close as you can. Maple is fairly tight grain so you don't have tp worry. The prurpose of testing on scrap is to test the regime and compatibility of finishes, prep and filler etc. Just test on the best you can lay your hands on.

You need to sand to more than 600 grit if you doing a Tru oil finish. 600 might be OK for you for a lacquer finish. I go to 2000 regardless. Between the last few grades I raise the grain with a damp cloth. That helps knock of any last fibres that are raised, yes, it does make a difference. It also helps remove remaining sanding dust and helps show up any fine scratched and dings that otherwise might go undetected. A days work now will be rewarded later down the road no matter what finish you use.

 

[WhiteStrat]

That piece of maple you get to test on is going to be a lot older than 64 years.

Muttley: Point, set, match.
WhiteStrat: Duhhh...

Just make sure it's dry. If your after doing some fancy colour or sunburst you'd want to match the colour in the white as close as you can. Maple is fairly tight grain so you don't have tp worry. The prurpose of testing on scrap is to test the regime and compatibility of finishes, prep and filler etc. Just test on the best you can lay your hands on.

You need to sand to more than 600 grit if you doing a Tru oil finish. 600 might be OK for you for a lacquer finish. I go to 2000 regardless. Between the last few grades I raise the grain with a damp cloth. That helps knock of any last fibres that are raised, yes, it does make a difference. It also helps remove remaining sanding dust and helps show up any fine scratched and dings that otherwise might go undetected.

No fancy finished. But good advice on the 2000 and the damp cloth. I'll do this.

A days work now will be rewarded later down the road no matter what finish you use.

I'm an impatient guy ("Results now! And make it great!") So this is the most salient advice yet. I'll heed it.

Thanks!

 

[Light]

You need to sand to more than 600 grit if you doing a Tru oil finish. 600 might be OK for you for a lacquer finish. I go to 2000 regardless. Between the last few grades I raise the grain with a damp cloth. That helps knock of any last fibres that are raised, yes, it does make a difference. It also helps remove remaining sanding dust and helps show up any fine scratched and dings that otherwise might go undetected. A days work now will be rewarded later down the road no matter what finish you use.

As has been said before, one of those things we disagree about.

I NEVER sand bare wood which will get a film finish past 220 grit. I don't think the finish sticks as well, and the finish doesn't look any better. Of course, that assumes that you are sanding properly, which most people don't, but if you do it right you don't need to go any further than that. At least, for not Lacquer. I usually use 100, 130, 150, and 180 on my random orbit sander for those areas I can, and hand sand the rest with 60, 100, and 150. After that, I raise the grain by whipping the guitar down with a wet paper towel, redo the last grit by machine and by hand, and then hand sand the whole thing with 220. It takes hours - don't let anyone tell you differently - but it will make the rest of the finishing process that much easier. If you do it right, you can spray a much thiner finish as well. I've been getting away with 1 or 2 coats of sealer and 6 "double coats," as Dan Erlewine calls them, where you spray a guitar once, and then IMMEDIATELY spray it again. It flows out much better this way - though you have to be careful because you can get some horrific sags. Each coat individual coat is just a bit thiner than if you sprayed 12 separate coats as well. If you don't do a good job of sanding, you will spend a LOT of extra time sanding in the finishing stages, and it won't look nearly as good.

When it comes to finishing, surface prep is EVERYTHING. Take your time, and do it right, and you can get good results.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

A days work now will be rewarded later down the road no matter what finish you use.

I'm an impatient guy ("Results now! And make it great!") So this is the most salient advice yet. I'll heed it.

Thanks!

DO! Taking your time and doing your surface prep right is the most important thing in finishing. No joke, if you don't do this part right, it doesn't matter what else you do.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[WhiteStrat]

Light, Muttley, Rogue

Thanks for chipping in and offering me some guidance. I feel like I'm loaded for bear now. As I sand and reveal the maple, I'm getting excited at the prospect of the finished piece. At the same time, I really just enjoying the wood and resisting the temptation to rush things.

I'll report back with good news when I've made some progress...

Thanks again!

 

[guitar zero]

Strat, take pictures along the way. Watching your progress would be fun.

 

[WhiteStrat]

Strat, take pictures along the way. Watching your progress would be fun.

I'll try to remember to...

 

[Roguetitan]

As has been said before, one of those things we disagree about.

I NEVER sand bare wood which will get a film finish past 220 grit. I don't think the finish sticks as well, and the finish doesn't look any better. Of course, that assumes that you are sanding properly, which most people don't, but if you do it right you don't need to go any further than that. At least, for not Lacquer. I usually use 100, 130, 150, and 180 on my random orbit sander for those areas I can, and hand sand the rest with 60, 100, and 150. After that, I raise the grain by whipping the guitar down with a wet paper towel, redo the last grit by machine and by hand, and then hand sand the whole thing with 220. It takes hours - don't let anyone tell you differently - but it will make the rest of the finishing process that much easier. If you do it right, you can spray a much thiner finish as well. I've been getting away with 1 or 2 coats of sealer and 6 "double coats," as Dan Erlewine calls them, where you spray a guitar once, and then IMMEDIATELY spray it again. It flows out much better this way - though you have to be careful because you can get some horrific sags. Each coat individual coat is just a bit thiner than if you sprayed 12 separate coats as well. If you don't do a good job of sanding, you will spend a LOT of extra time sanding in the finishing stages, and it won't look nearly as good.

When it comes to finishing, surface prep is EVERYTHING. Take your time, and do it right, and you can get good results.

I start the sanding process just as light does and if i am using Laquer based paints I will not go past 220 either because I do a lot of wet sanding between coats which insures a very slick finish but using a clear poly finish...
I usually end up using wet 800 grit emory paper to get any remaining grain to stand up then I will finish my sanding/prep work by sanding with thinned down tung oil or linseed oil then wipe it down with a lint free rag, this does two things it helps to remove any remaining fuzz and also does an excellent job of sealing the work. You will need to let the piece sit overnight then go over the work one last time with dry 800 grit emory paper and remove any remaining dust with a damp rag alcohol wet napkins work good as well because the alcohol evaporates quickly.



I have adapted Dans technique to my own. one of my coats actually consists of two very light coats, the first coat across grain then one with the grain.

As a side Note:Using poly you have to be very patient because you have to let it sit overnight to allow for drying time a poly finish usually takes me 8 to 14 days to complete all the steps depending on how many coats I use.

I love clear poly finish but it can be a pain in the butt to appply
and to be totally honest Laquer based finishes are a lot more user friendly than poly.
and using laquer based finishes, any mistakes can be corrected a lot easier than using poly.

the reason I like poly so much is because it is a lot more durable than laquer , it can take a little more punishment than Laquer and does not chip or crack like laquer finishes can, Poly is more flexible and expands and contracts as the wood expands and contracts.

I thought that last tid bit of info may be useful since you mentioned you are impatient

I will echo what light said, regardless of the method you use; Both mutley and Lights methods are good methods but as you can tell everyone does things a little diffrently( no right or wrong way just different)
but taking your time and doing the method step by step is the key to getting the results you are trying to achieve.
when it comes to prep work, patience is a virtue.

Strat, take pictures along the way. Watching your progress would be fun.

ya at least a B4 and after photo