question for light or muttley, or anyone

  • Thread starter Thread starter tom18222
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tom18222

yes
i'm making a custom warmoth jazzmaster, and i bought some waterslide decal paper for my printer, to print out my own custom decal for the headstock. in case you dont know, they are almost like those fake tattoos. you wet it and rub it on.


anyway, ive been reading, and i guess it says that it needs a couple coats of clear over the decal.


first of all, is this going to clash with the existing neck finish on the warmoth neck, and second of all, is it easy to do? should i tape off the fretboard and sides of the headstock?


and also, do you recommend any lacquer clear coat spray cans?


thanks.


i'm new to this stuff
 
tom18222 said:
i'm making a custom warmoth jazzmaster, and i bought some waterslide decal paper for my printer, to print out my own custom decal for the headstock. in case you dont know, they are almost like those fake tattoos. you wet it and rub it on.


anyway, ive been reading, and i guess it says that it needs a couple coats of clear over the decal.


first of all, is this going to clash with the existing neck finish on the warmoth neck, and second of all, is it easy to do? should i tape off the fretboard and sides of the headstock?


and also, do you recommend any lacquer clear coat spray cans?


thanks.


i'm new to this stuff
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I'll let Light answer on the Warmoth finish, I haven't seen many this side of the Atlantic but those I have seen have had different finishes on. From what I understand you can buy them either pre finished Gloss, satin, etc, or in the white to finish yourself. These they supply with an oil based sealer, thats likely to be a polymerised linseed oil as it will not effect other finishes going on top. The first question I'd ask you is what finish do you have on the neck?

Waterslide decals are fine, I have used them myself in the past, and you can finish on top of them. If I was in your shoes and had a limited amount of finishing experience I'd use a shellac or fench polish sealer under and over the decal then finish on top of that.

I'm not sure how much of this project you are going to be finishing or what timbers you are finishing so it's hard to advise on what to use. I would look into using Tru oil if it's your first project. I can give you some advice on prep and application. We need more details to advise on specifics. Most important would be what timbers and whats on there already.
 
Warmoth uses a polyurethane, with a polyester base coat.

I'd probably just use some shellac, with maybe a few coats of something else over the top, but you're never going to be able to blend it in at the edges.

Well, really, if it were mine, I'd leave it alone.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I don't think you'll be able to brush anything, like shellac, or french polish, or tru-oil. You'll have to spray it on, because you'll wipe your "decal" right off the headstock when you touch it. I've tried that approach, and mine smeared while I was still holding it in my hand trying to trim the "paper," after letting it dry for weeks.
The other problem you have is that technically, lacquer doesn't generally like to be sprayed over enamel. It does any number of crazy things, because it won’t stick. It’s like trying to mix oil and water. You could call Warmoth with a question about it. I’m sure their order-takers will have something they can read to you about it; just don’t ask them for too detailed of help.
My advice is to visit http://www.best-decals.com/ and try their “design your own” and see if you can satisfy yourself with a little less than “custom” headstock decal. They are vinyl, and won’t absolutely have to be painted over.
If, on the other hand, you must have your home-spun decal, you probably can get satisfactory results by taping the fretboard, and spraying one nice wet coat of any poly-clear you can find at home-depot on just the face of your headstock, and then cleaning the overspray from the edge with some super-fine wet-sand paper, like 1200. Just pay attention to not sand right on the very edge, where the face ends. You’ll sand through quicker than you can say “whups.”

Peace!

~Shawn
 
eyema_believer said:
I don't think you'll be able to brush anything, like shellac, or french polish, or tru-oil. You'll have to spray it on, because you'll wipe your "decal" right off the headstock when you touch it. I've tried that approach, and mine smeared while I was still holding it in my hand trying to trim the "paper," after letting it dry for weeks.
The other problem you have is that technically, lacquer doesn't generally like to be sprayed over enamel. It does any number of crazy things, because it won’t stick. It’s like trying to mix oil and water. You could call Warmoth with a question about it. I’m sure their order-takers will have something they can read to you about it; just don’t ask them for too detailed of help.
My advice is to visit http://www.best-decals.com/ and try their “design your own” and see if you can satisfy yourself with a little less than “custom” headstock decal. They are vinyl, and won’t absolutely have to be painted over.
If, on the other hand, you must have your home-spun decal, you probably can get satisfactory results by taping the fretboard, and spraying one nice wet coat of any poly-clear you can find at home-depot on just the face of your headstock, and then cleaning the overspray from the edge with some super-fine wet-sand paper, like 1200. Just pay attention to not sand right on the very edge, where the face ends. You’ll sand through quicker than you can say “whups.”

Peace!

~Shawn
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Use the right ink and you'll be fine with the decal.

Shellac or french polish is perfect for this. It's used a a barrier coat between incompatible finishes and will stick to just about anything thats why both Light and myself recommended it, so ignore the above advice. You'll be fine brushing over it with a soft brush, just let the decal dry thoroughly and brush over it with a single pass. Once that has been done you can use a french polish rubber to build up the finish. You best bet is to just use a few thin coats and you'll hardly notice the witness line at the edge. If you want to spray clear polyester you'll have to build quite a bit and flat it out to get as good a finish, and then you'll definitely have a horrid witness line at the edge.
 
By the by, I usually use the same stuff (DIY decal paper) for serial numbers on my guitars, and you can easily just air brush, or maybe even brush, a thin coat of finish onto it (I do this before I apply them to my guitars, even though I'm going to spray over them). If you do that, you might be able to get away with not finishing over it, though it would be much less robust than if you did clear coat it.

Fender, at various points in their history, has done a lot of their decals over the finish, so there is no reason you can't try it. I mean, what's the worst that could happen? You have to do it again? It's not like you would have a lot invested into it at that point - decal paper is cheap, and you're not using that much ink. I see no reason why you can't at least try it with no clear coat. You won't be damaging anything.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
i'm either going to just try is without, like you said, or just get it made out of vinyl. how delicate are they? do they come off to the touch or will they fade?
 
tom18222 said:
i'm either going to just try is without, like you said, or just get it made out of vinyl. how delicate are they? do they come off to the touch or will they fade?
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Lights advice above is probably the best idea. For the cost of a few dollars you can try one without finishing over. If that doesn't work you can wash it of and do it again with a wash coat of shellac on top. How hard can it be?

They can be delicate but they are in an area where they don't get handled much so you should be OK. They shouldn't fade if you use good ink.
 
muttley600 said:
Use the right ink and you'll be fine with the decal.

Shellac or french polish is perfect for this. It's used a a barrier coat between incompatible finishes and will stick to just about anything thats why both Light and myself recommended it, so ignore the above advice. You'll be fine brushing over it with a soft brush, just let the decal dry thoroughly and brush over it with a single pass.
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My my my. What's "the right ink" for this application? I can't see how he'd be fine with brushing over something that is water soluable with shellac flakes immersed in solvent. If the oil on my finger was enough to ruin it, anything, let alone an oil based product applied with a brush, is going to smear it. So, I personally would ignore this bit of advice. You'll end up with quite a mess; a smeared decal under shellac.
 
eyema_believer said:
My my my. What's "the right ink" for this application? I can't see how he'd be fine with brushing over something that is water soluable with shellac flakes immersed in solvent. If the oil on my finger was enough to ruin it, anything, let alone an oil based product applied with a brush, is going to smear it. So, I personally would ignore this bit of advice. You'll end up with quite a mess; a smeared decal under shellac.
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You can buy archival-qualilty ink cartridges for most inkjet printers, or have your local refill shop fill yours.

Spray the decal with clearcoat after printing it and before applying it, and then you can overcoat with no worry.
 
eyema_believer said:
My my my. What's "the right ink" for this application? I can't see how he'd be fine with brushing over something that is water soluable with shellac flakes immersed in solvent. If the oil on my finger was enough to ruin it, anything, let alone an oil based product applied with a brush, is going to smear it. So, I personally would ignore this bit of advice. You'll end up with quite a mess; a smeared decal under shellac.
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I'll tell you why, because I do this for a living and have done for over 25 years. I've have done exactly what I have described many many times. If you've messed it up once I suggest you try it a few more times before you start telling me how to do my job, OK?

The right ink is proprietary branded that dries and is colour fast, not the cheaper generic stuff that fades with time and has cheaper driers in it.

Just for the record decals are not water soluble, if they were they would dissolve in water. You use water to float it off the backer. You really don't know what your talking about so I suggest you go a do a few years guitar building and french polishing before you start handing out the benefit of your inexperience.

At the end of the day it's up to the OP to decide who's advice he's going to take. At the moment it's one persons experience of one mishap and a lack of understanding of finishing materials against two experienced guitar makers with decades of experience. Think about it.
 
Zaphod B said:
You can buy archival-qualilty ink cartridges for most inkjet printers, or have your local refill shop fill yours.

Spray the decal with clearcoat after printing it and before applying it, and then you can overcoat with no worry.
Click to expand...

You want to be careful about putting too much on top of the decal before you float it. The decal needs to be soft and pliable in order to float right and seat itself well. Some decal kits come with a spray coat to go on the decal before you slide it, is that what your talking about? I'd stick with that.

As light pointed out the cost of the stuff is minimal so a bit of experimenting wouldn't cost anything but time. As I always advise with anything finishing related. Test your method on scrap first.

Before anyone else starts saying you cant brush over them with a soft brush and thin clear shellac or similar, nip down to your local beauty/nail salon and see how they do it.

EDIT:I've just called the guys that supply the decal stuff I use. You can brush over with care or rag it gently. I'm glad they confirmed that because I've been doing it for years.... Also if you want to spray before application they say you can use an acrylic sealer, but a light coat only and only then if you are applying to a true flat sealed surface. When asked about wood they said prep the surface with.... wait for it....shellac.!!!
 
muttley600 said:
I'll tell you why, because I do this for a living and have done for over 25 years. I've have done exactly what I have described many many times. If you've messed it up once I suggest you try it a few more times before you start telling me how to do my job, OK?

The right ink is proprietary branded that dries and is colour fast, not the cheaper generic stuff that fades with time and has cheaper driers in it.
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I'm really not trying to tell you how to do your job.
On the other hand, what good is it to say to someone "just use the right ink," and then not tell them what that is? You've spent lots of time on here typing about it, trying to prove your point, and still haven't given the OP any clue as to what to buy, and where to buy it. To me, it seems that the only thing you are interested in is stroking your own ego, having everyone know how much experience you have, and proving how correct you are. It wasn't your advice given to the OP that bothers me, it's your poor attitude, spitting venom on your post.
 
muttley600 said:
You want to be careful about putting too much on top of the decal before you float it. The decal needs to be soft and pliable in order to float right and seat itself well. Some decal kits come with a spray coat to go on the decal before you slide it, is that what your talking about? I'd stick with that.
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Right, that's what I was talking about, not enough to make it rigid.
 
eyema_believer said:
I'm really not trying to tell you how to do your job.
On the other hand, what good is it to say to someone "just use the right ink," and then not tell them what that is? You've spent lots of time on here typing about it, trying to prove your point, and still haven't given the OP any clue as to what to buy, and where to buy it. To me, it seems that the only thing you are interested in is stroking your own ego, having everyone know how much experience you have, and proving how correct you are. It wasn't your advice given to the OP that bothers me, it's your poor attitude, spitting venom on your post.
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Listen dip shit, I post here because in the course of my career as a luthier I wouldn't have learned half as much as I have in double the time if experienced people hadn't given me good advice from practical experience. All I'm doing is putting some back.

I came here looking for advice on recording and got good solid helpful "qualified" advice. If you hunt about you'll see I don't advise on recording issues because I am not qualified to do so. I do know about guitars and all that goes into making them and when some one hands out bad advice or contradicts what I KNOW will work on the basis of a failed attempt what the fuck do you expect me to do. I'm going to call you out. If you think I'm stroking my ego so be it. Your still wrong.

If you want to have a poll to see if I should stop handing out advice for the benefit of my ego go ahead. If people didn't want my advice they wouldn't put my username in the thread title would they?

As to not telling him what ink to use, if he wants to know all he has to do is ask.

Frankly I couldn't give a shit what you think about me. I could give a shit that you are telling someone how to do something the wrong way when you haven't got the first idea what your talking about.
 
ladies ladies ladies, hey lets keep this nice.


i think i'm gonna try the acrylic sealer thing. just spray a light coat over the decal beforehand? i dont want to put anything on the neck, its a 300 dollar neck.

to go off topic

does anybody know anything about the warmoth pro necks? they have a double truss rod, and i dont know what the advantage....or difference is compared to a normal truss rod. and also, it has the side adjustment (a hole in the heal of the neck near the lower cutaway) for easy adjustments. is this a good thing or was it a waste of money?

i guess i shouldve axed befo hand
 
eyema believer, I do believe you've stepped in it. Don't feel bad, though, you're not the first to have brought a butter knife to this particular gun fight. :D
 
tom18222 said:
ladies ladies ladies, hey lets keep this nice.


i think i'm gonna try the acrylic sealer thing. just spray a light coat over the decal beforehand? i dont want to put anything on the neck, its a 300 dollar neck.

to go off topic

does anybody know anything about the warmoth pro necks? they have a double truss rod, and i dont know what the advantage....or difference is compared to a normal truss rod. and also, it has the side adjustment (a hole in the heal of the neck near the lower cutaway) for easy adjustments. is this a good thing or was it a waste of money?

i guess i shouldve axed befo hand
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Going back a bit, what finish have you got on there already? Is it finished or just sealed? In other words are you looking to finish the whole neck or just over the decal? If it's a sealed neck I think Warmoth only honour the warranty if you finish it, thats another issue though..

If it's just over the decal, I'd seriously just wash it over with some shellac after you apply it. You can seal the decal with a thin acrylic first no problem. Do a test first, but the less you can get away with putting on the better the finish is going to look especially if you can rub the shellac on with a polishing rubber. If it's the whole neck you need to finish you can think about other methods..

The truss rod thing. Normally double action rods allow you to adjust forward and back bow, I assume thats what you have. I don't like them because a truss rod should only correct for the pull of the strings or forward bow, but there is nothing wrong with them and they work just fine so don't worry about it. Just come back and ask the right questions when you come to set the guitar up.;)
 
muttley600 said:
I do know about guitars and all that goes into making them and when some one hands out bad advice or contradicts what I KNOW will work on the basis of a failed attempt what the fuck do you expect me to do. I'm going to call you out. If you think I'm stroking my ego so be it. Your still wrong.

As to not telling him what ink to use, if he wants to know all he has to do is ask.

Frankly I couldn't give a shit what you think about me.
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Maybe instead of being so confrontational, you could find out why my attempt failed, and try to help me, instead of being such a disrespectful jerk.
By the way dipshit, you shorten "You are still wrong" like this: "You're still wrong."

If you didn't care what I thought of you you wouldn't be defending yourself so mightily.
 
eyema_believer said:
Maybe instead of being so confrontational, you could find out why my attempt failed, and try to help me, instead of being such a disrespectful jerk.
By the way dipshit, you shorten "You are still wrong" like this: "You're still wrong."

If you didn't care what I thought of you you wouldn't be defending yourself so mightily.
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Reread your original post and tell me what was correct in there apart from the fact that you fucked it up once. Then reread my response and tell me where I was rude to you? I just pointed out all the inaccuracies in your post. If you think me not dancing round your insecurity is being rude then you need to adjust your expectations. Read it tell me where I was rude. Go on. Then I'll tell you who came off as the "big I am" and started being rude. Feckin' noobs.

Right I'm outta here, sorry guy's this place has gone to the dogs recently in any case. Nothing but trolls and noobs picking fights. I'm just too busy to put up with insecure little shits like him.

You can have your advice on guitars served up by the noob here with a dose of incorrect grammatic corrections thrown in.

I'm history guy's nice talking to you all. I'll miss some of you and you know who you are. Be cool. I'm off to stroke my ego.
 
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