Home Recording's Dirty Little Secret

[MCI2424]

.... I always get a kick out of folks that think they have to go to prosoundweb or something to talk to "pros." I've actually seen people say that...."

See. this is where I have to say that there are professional recording people and non-professional recording people. PSW is in the total professional camp. There is a definite line between them and us. People argue all the time "Can a home recording rival a pro recording? "

The answer is yes. But, the luxury of home recording is taking all the time you need to get a great sounding recording. The pros will kill any home reccer dead when it comes to cranking out 12-20 albums a year. These guys are head and shoulders above any home reccer INCLUDING Tom Scholtz.

So, I think a good dose of reality is in order because sometimes this BBS tends to neglect the fact that "pro" means pro (as in the quality of work expected by the client) in a cost effective timely fashion. Many commercial albums get cranked out in a week (according to Steve Albini). The pro engineers, producers, mix AEs and mastering engineers put out consistant high quality product quickly and that is the real dividing line between home reccers and pros.

 

[DavidK]

The answer is yes. But, the luxury of home recording is taking all the time you need to get a great sounding recording. The pros will kill any home reccer dead when it comes to cranking out 12-20 albums a year. These guys are head and shoulders above any home reccer INCLUDING Tom Scholtz.

True. They have the benefit of years of experience, and can do it 8 hours a day.

Many commercial albums get cranked out in a week (according to Steve Albini).

That depends on a zillion variables. In ye olden days, bands would rent the studio to actually write and experiment, they would block out a month and just move in. I doubt many do that now, its too expensive and the labels are tanking. Plus, there is no need.

In genres besides rock (classical, jazz, folk etc), commercial recordings are done in a few days if its a small label. If it's a union gig, its lickety split, the rates are obscene. Classical recording has almost stopped except for the handful of Yo Yo Mas. Everything else is a live recording.

 

[mwthompson]

sorry that was hella long.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

There is a definite line between them and us.
...
The pros will kill any home reccer dead when it comes to cranking out 12-20 albums a year.

I see the point, but that still just begs the question, just where is that definitive line? If one can only crank out 11 albums a year instead of 12, is that person then not a pro?

Or, on another angle, if one can crank out 20 a year but they have a sub-par sound because they are working on small budget stuff or have been saddled by a hack producer or label, or simply are interested in cranking out 20 albums because they have a new heated swimming pool to pay for, are they then a pro because they are cranking out quantity, or less-than-pro because the subjective quality of the result is lacking?

And where would that line of quality be? Does that horseshit-sounding Zepplin or Stones album quality as non-pro because the sound sucks, or pro simply because it's a major name on a major label?

The answers to me, IMHO, are that there is no line that can ba drawn by either quality or quantity. And name brand on a label or artist is meaningless in this context. It simply comes down to effort and intent.

If Sir George Martin himself produced Harry Conick, Jr. on an album with some Nashville Cats at Paisley Park, and they phoned in the effort, that is not a professional recording, IME.

(Granted, the fact is that none of those folks I mentioned in this example would ever phone it in; they don't know HOW to make anything unprofessionally. I can't say the same for every other name brand engineer, producer or artist out there, though. There are as many "pro" hacks in this business as there are in every other, from mail carrier to rocket surgeon.)

OTOH, if Joe Homewrecker and the Garage Boyz practiced intently on their album for a year until they could nail the performance while comatose before they even thought about stepping into the studio, and then spent another year studying and practicing with their $3K of recording gear and learning some real studio technique before they even let anything stick to disc, making sure they did the best that they and their situation could before they even considered burning an MP3, even if their music was uninspired and their recording still sounded amateurish, *that* in my book is a professional effort and a professional production.

Sure, given enough experience, Joe and the Garage Boyz will eventually be able to crank out 12-20 productions a year, but they will only be professional productions if a professional level of care is put into it. The instant they take anything for granted or accept marginality as good enough, they drop their pro status.

If someone comes in here and says they want to make a pro-level recording - and they don't get cold feet when they discover that such a quality is more than just a plugin or hardware setting away - then they are making a pro-level recording.

G.

 

[MCI2424]

"...

If Sir George Martin himself produced Harry Conick, Jr. on an album with some Nashville Cats at Paisley Park, and they phoned in the effort, that is not a professional recording, IME.

(Granted, the fact is that none of those folks I mentioned in this example would ever phone it in; they don't know HOW to make anything unprofessionally...."

G.

This is the answer to your question right here. Real pros would never make a shabby product.Pro studios hand you a product that is organized, prepared and up to expected levels to their clients both performers and clients such as mix AEs, and mastering engineers for $$$ in a timely manner. So, while a band can spend 2 years getting a "pro' quality recording, they cannot be considered a professional production. A pro production means you hired everyone to do the entire project soup to nuts.

So, Joes band gets signed, the company puts up money and hires well known professional people to start and finish a production all the way to the radio.

I guess what I am saying is a professional job of any type is defined as hiring out the work. The competence of people working on the jobs is another story. Contractors hire carpenters, plumbers, electricians etc. to build homes. They only use the ones who have measured up to their standards. There are bad pros everywhere and the only thing you can do to protect yourself is to use people who have a good reputation.

So, finally, reputation of the professional IS the standard that a pro quality job is measured against.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

This is the answer to your question right here.

Heh heh, I go in and out of agreement with the above from sentence to sentence. I get what you're saying, and agree with much of it, but there are self-contradictions in there that I think are important.

This is the answer to your question right here. Real pros would never make a shabby product.

Agreed. Yet there are many people considered "real pros" by virtue of brand name or the simple fact that they have managed to hang around long enough that have put out plenty of what would be considered "shabby products" if looked at objectively and not through the filter of who did it. And conversely, there are planty of folks who are unknown or first-timers who treat their job professionally and put out quality products, but are not by "standard definitions" considered "industry pros."

So, while a band can spend 2 years getting a "pro' quality recording, they cannot be considered a professional production.

Why not? If it sounds like a duck, quacks like a duck, shits like a duck and flies like a duck, why is it not a duck? If they approached the production in a professional manor, using professional technique and care, hit all the marks professionally and wind up with a professional-sounding product, then why is not not a professional-quality job?

A pro production means you hired everyone to do the entire project soup to nuts.

Tell that to Leonard Cohen, Moby, Alan Parsons, Nick Cave, Vangelis, and the aformentioned Tomiita, Synergy, Walter Carlos, and Mike Oldfield, and the many others who do pretty much all the writing, recording, performing, mixing, and producing themselves. These folks are not professionals and do not create a professional product?

So, finally, reputation of the professional IS the standard that a pro quality job is measured against

Reputation is no guarantee in this business. As you say, "there are bad pros everywhere". Many folks got their "reputation" by being in the right place at the right time, pure blind luck. Many others have had a very uneven record over the years and have in fact been able to get passes on the stinkers exactly because of their reputation. Reputation is big when it's earned and when it's current, but it's certainly not necessarily a reliable litmus test of professionalism.

Professionalism is what professionalism does (with apologies to Forest Gump )

G.

 

[MCI2424]

I am trying to say that a professional production is one that satisfies the client's wishes in a cost effective timely manner. While a production that someone spent 2 years satisfies the client's desires, and can go up in every way, shape, manner and form against a professianally produced piece of work, it is still not a professional production. The client is one's self, and the outcome is a great production, but to go to a professional and hire them to do the work for you is different tham spending 2 years learning and by trial and error coming up with a great production.

I still say that that great kitchen project that takes 6 months for a home carpenter to do will take a professional carpenter 2 -3 days to finish.

It is all about what you personal time is worth. People seem to think that they save money by buying recording equipment, learning how to do it and then doing it is a free lunch. If I had a band that was ready to record a fantastic album, and would be signed once that record is done, I would have no choice but to go to a pro recording studio. They would get it done in 2 weeks and not 2 years. It is all about what you expect to get out of it. If you expect to do it all yourself, very very few have been able to pull it off successfully. Most of the top bands hire it out and go on tour as their time spent on tour is where they make their money. Any band that doies it all themselves are certainly not making much money on the road.:

And about many of the pro musicians that wear every hat, you can't do it all yourself and be a master of all.

So. I don't know what more to say, I guess there is no answer.

 

[Beck]

See. this is where I have to say that there are professional recording people and non-professional recording people. PSW is in the total professional camp. There is a definite line between them and us. People argue all the time "Can a home recording rival a pro recording? "

The answer is yes. But, the luxury of home recording is taking all the time you need to get a great sounding recording. The pros will kill any home reccer dead when it comes to cranking out 12-20 albums a year. These guys are head and shoulders above any home reccer INCLUDING Tom Scholtz.

So, I think a good dose of reality is in order because sometimes this BBS tends to neglect the fact that "pro" means pro (as in the quality of work expected by the client) in a cost effective timely fashion. Many commercial albums get cranked out in a week (according to Steve Albini). The pro engineers, producers, mix AEs and mastering engineers put out consistant high quality product quickly and that is the real dividing line between home reccers and pros.

A good dose of reality in order, eh?

Ok…

The dividing line is between people that know what they’re doing and people that don’t, not between home/project and commercial studios. I don’t think anyone in a home/project setting cares about spitting out 20 albums a year. You’re confusing and comparing two entirely different purposes.

I am my only client, dear. I’m not interested in running a commercial studio again. I may do some work for a friend or two on occasion but otherwise it’s all me.

The consensus on this forum is that pro means a professional level result, comparable to what one would expect in a state of the art commercial setting with competent, knowledgeable staff. In fact that is a common definition of the term as viewed by our society in any field of endeavor. Olympic athletes are technically amateurs. That should end the debate right there… but I know it won’t.

There has always been a naivety in your posts with this pro vs. semi-pro thing. Pro and amateur can’t be neatly categorized by the names of the websites people frequent. And the most in demand freelancers don't have time for chat rooms of any kind. And who are the “us” you speak of? I don’t know of any popular forums that aren’t anonymous and free, and we can come and go as we please. People aren’t assigned to a forum according to their level of involvement in the recording industry. Which brings me to my next question:

I’m really curious… I know you live in the US, but is English your first language and are you from Asia or a former Soviet block nation? No, I’m not trying to be funny… I’m genuinely trying to understand if you are just very young or there is a cultural or sociopolitical disconnect. I’m a person that just has to know why people think what they think, even if they don’t know why they think what they think. The reason I ask is that I’m seeing a familiar outsider perception from when I tutored Korean students in college. It was very difficult for them to grasp the nuances of western culture and they were frustrated that everything didn’t really have a rigid structure as presented in the contents of an introductory level textbook. It’s the difference between having an experiential working knowledge of something and just having read about it at a 101 level.

There also seems to be a pre-socialization element to your perspective… an idealistic view of someone that wants to be a “Pro” and believes it to be an almost unattainable status reserved for super heroes.

There is no such animal as “The pros” as you are defining it. The music scene is much more diversified. Some people that record and produce in commercial settings are really good, and some really suck. Most fall somewhere in the middle. There is no running circles around anyone because there is no race.

The recording musician/artist actually has every advantage... if they do their homework and approach the recording process with the same commitment and determination as they do the musical instruments they’ve mastered.

That's all it takes.

 

[mshilarious]

And who are the “us” you speak of? I don’t know of any popular forums that aren’t anonymous and free, and we can come and go as we please.

Pro or not, no one is taken seriously at PSW unless their name is in their profile. In fact, on Klaus Heyne's forum, it's mandatory.

 

[MCI2424]

A good dose of reality in order, eh?

Ok…

The dividing line is between people that know what they’re doing and people that don’t, not between home/project and commercial studios. I don’t think anyone in a home/project setting cares about spitting out 20 albums a year. You’re confusing and comparing two entirely different purposes.

I am my only client, dear. I’m not interested in running a commercial studio again. I may do some work for a friend or two on occasion but otherwise it’s all me.

The consensus on this forum is that pro means a professional level result, comparable to what one would expect in a state of the art commercial setting with competent, knowledgeable staff. In fact that is a common definition of the term as viewed by our society in any field of endeavor. Olympic athletes are technically amateurs. That should end the debate right there… but I know it won’t.

There has always been a naivety in your posts with this pro vs. semi-pro thing. Pro and amateur can’t be neatly categorized by the names of the websites people frequent. And the most in demand freelancers don't have time for chat rooms of any kind. And who are the “us” you speak of? I don’t know of any popular forums that aren’t anonymous and free, and we can come and go as we please. People aren’t assigned to a forum according to their level of involvement in the recording industry. Which brings me to my next question:

I’m really curious… I know you live in the US, but is English your first language and are you from Asia or a former Soviet block nation? No, I’m not trying to be funny… I’m genuinely trying to understand if you are just very young or there is a cultural or sociopolitical disconnect. I’m a person that just has to know why people think what they think, even if they don’t know why they think what they think. The reason I ask is that I’m seeing a familiar outsider perception from when I tutored Korean students in college. It was very difficult for them to grasp the nuances of western culture and they were frustrated that everything didn’t really have a rigid structure as presented in the contents of an introductory level textbook. It’s the difference between having an experiential working knowledge of something and just having read about it at a 101 level.

There also seems to be a pre-socialization element to your perspective… an idealistic view of someone that wants to be a “Pro” and believes it to be an almost unattainable status reserved for super heroes.

There is no such animal as “The pros” as you are defining it. The music scene is much more diversified. Some people that record and produce in commercial settings are really good, and some really suck. Most fall somewhere in the middle. There is no running circles around anyone because there is no race.

The recording musician/artist actually has every advantage... if they do their homework and approach the recording process with the same commitment and determination as they do the musical instruments they’ve mastered.

That's all it takes.

Sorry, you are just plain wrong. I can't talk to you or change your mind at all. If there are no such animals as "pros", then there is no such word as "pro" and that includes doctors, lawyers etc.

Fine, there are no "pro" anyone on earth.

Lets just say there are studios for hire and studios not for hire. Studios for hire can record pretty much everyone who calls at the door, get them a great sounding product, and have the equipment, skills, soundrooms, and connections to get your project from your guitar amp to the radio.

Studios not-for-hire can record you and a few friends and have any kind of equipment from mild to wild.

Whats the point? You have a problem with the word "pro", so, remove that word from the dictionary and what you seem to keep on saying is:
There are people who know what they are doing and those who don't.

There are people who own studios that employ people who know what they are doing. What are they called?

How about "Home Studio" and "Really big, nicely equipped, designed sound rooms with kitchen and meals served home studio"?

What do I say? If there are no "pros" I suggest you go to a student doctor for your next visit, it will save you a bunch of $$$ as he/she will either be good, or bad.

 

[MCI2424]

Pro or not, no one is taken seriously at PSW unless their name is in their profile. In fact, on Klaus Heyne's forum, it's mandatory.

Which says that the source of information is respected (not "pro" godforbid)

 

[Beck]

Pro or not, no one is taken seriously at PSW unless their name is in their profile. In fact, on Klaus Heyne's forum, it's mandatory.

Please say you’re kidding. Making up a name and profile is as easy as falling off a log, on PSW or anywhere else. This is cyber reality. I wasn’t asked for ID when I registered at PSW and I don’t share personal information for security reasons on most sites.

 

[Beck]

Sorry, you are just plain wrong. I can't talk to you or change your mind at all. If there are no such animals as "pros", then there is no such word as "pro" and that includes doctors, lawyers etc.

Fine, there are no "pro" anyone on earth.

I said there is no such thing as a "Pro" as YOU are defining it in the context of music recording. You don’t have a realistic grasp of the scope of the industry. Yet if you want to go there, there are plenty of doctors that are killing perfectly healthy patients, and nurse practitioners/physicians assistants/Paramedics that make many doctors look like pre-med students.

There are many police officers that can barely qualify on the shooting range and yet we have citizens that are expert marksmen with trophies lining the walls. There are ordained ministers that can’t deliver a good sermon to save their lives, and yet non-paid lay preachers with no degree or qualifications that are just naturals. The list goes on… name any “profession.”


You didn't answer my questions though. It might help me understand you better. Maybe you're not a troll per se. Perhaps just not from around here.

 

[mshilarious]

Please say you’re kidding. Making up a name and profile is as easy as falling off a log, on PSW or anywhere else. This is cyber reality. I wasn’t asked for ID when I registered at PSW and I don’t share personal information for security reasons on most sites.

No, I'm not kidding about Klaus Heyne. Post on his board anonymously, and he will require you to add your name and professional affiliation to your profile, or he will delete your post.

Anyway, a real audio professional is going to be known in the industry. They don't seem to suffer any security risk from having their names on liner notes, nor on PSW, nor attending AES conferences. Maybe there is the occasional random engineer killing, but I suspect I am more at risk driving my kids to school in the morning.

I believe they view it as a professional courtesy. Sure, you can make up an ID, but a real audio professional, if not known to others, can at least be found on Google. On the other hand, if one is a real professional, it would behoove one to use a real ID, since works flows from reputation.

This might be anonymous cyber reality to you, but I find that an unfortunate viewpoint.

 

[Beck]

No, I'm not kidding about Klaus Heyne. Post on his board anonymously, and he will require you to add your name and professional affiliation to your profile, or he will delete your post.

Anyway, a real audio professional is going to be known in the industry. They don't seem to suffer any security risk from having their names on liner notes, nor on PSW, nor attending AES conferences. Maybe there is the occasional random engineer killing, but I suspect I am more at risk driving my kids to school in the morning.

I believe they view it as a professional courtesy. Sure, you can make up an ID, but a real audio professional, if not known to others, can at least be found on Google. On the other hand, if one is a real professional, it would behoove one to use a real ID, since works flows from reputation.

This might be anonymous cyber reality to you, but I find that an unfortunate viewpoint.

In my experience most “Real” audio professionals are unknown at a national or international level. Some of the most gifted musicians I know are unknown outside of their local communities. Some of the best soundmen I know are living out their careers in local studios, sound reinforcement companies and church sound ministries. They have no web presence and are content with their jobs, families and communities.

When I say anonymous, I mean the board admins cannot verify you are using your real name or you have the background you say you do. No ID is required and no background check is done. Filling in all the boxes doesn’t cut it. Web forums are full of pretenders, including PSW. The number I’ve seen that are just repeating things they’ve read on the web is pretty staggering. They can appear to have some background, even though some are literally cutting and pasting from other forums and presenting the words as their own. I’ve found sections of my original posts presented elsewhere as that poster’s own words.

I know there are authentic people at PSW and on most all the forums because I know them outside the web, but there is no way to keep the riffraff out.

You underestimate the need for people to be a part of something and the ease with which the Internet has made it possible to create your own reality and be something you’re not. This is resume padding on steroids, with no checks and balances in place to verify qualifications.

That’s what I mean when I say cyber reality. It’s like the myspace profiles, but it gets even worse in some web subcultures where members are living a significant part of their existence as characters they’ve created that bear little resemblance to them.

There are forums I participate in that are verified members only and that is the only sure way to know you’re engaging people with a minimum qualification. For me some of those forums are:

AES
NSSAR (Sons of the American Revolution)
Microsoft MCSE official forums
ARRL (ham radio)
My Alma Mater forums

Good luck trying to register for any of these if you don’t have the qualifications. You will have an easier time breaking into Fort Knox.

I’m not advocating that all forums should be members only. What I’m saying is “Be careful out there.”

IMO, gullibility is the most unfortunate viewpoint.

 

[DavidK]

There are people who own studios that employ people who know what they are doing. What are they called?

I dunno. But I have been in dozens of studios and know this:

it doesnt mean squat. There are pros that suck the big one. What they are good at is money, getting the cash to buy the toys and open the biz. Product-wise, they might not be as good as the kid with the cracked copy of Fruity Loops. This happens all the time.

Renting a studio means squat. Head to the mp3 clinic: people often post their song that was done at a "pro" studio, and it doesnt sound as good as the version they did in their bedroom. It takes a geniune GIFT, in addition to hard work. I can practice basketball all day and it won't matter, I dont have the skill.

Satisfying clients can mean having the gift of the gab. If one talks a good game, they can get somewhere too. "Clients" are often suits who literally wont know the difference between a great product and a crappy one. I wouldnt know the difference between a great diamond ring and a cubic zirconia.

A pro production means you hired everyone to do the entire project soup to nuts.

Agreed, You just hire yourself. No need to hire anybody if I can do their jobs as good or better than they can. As I said earlier in this thread, I hired a completely incompetent idiot this summer. I mixed the album instead. Its not that I am a wunderkind engineer, I am not. Its that he was tone deaf. He talked a big game, had MAJOR gear, and put out some of the worst crap I have ever imagined. "Pro" literally doesnt mean anything, its a financial term and not a musical one.

 

[Bob's Mods]

For the Record....no pun intended

When I inserted the term "commercial" into the poll, my thinking was a high end studio that would be used by top artists signed by top labels. These places typically exist now in LA and Nashville. This is usually the stuff that gets air play, its the stuff the average person may own, and is usually the benchmark of quality in the minds of people who have never done HR (the few crappy pro released mixes aside). It would be easy for someone not initiated into the recording arts to believe that he/she could achieve similar results. Like a previous poster stated "How hard could it be?".

Bob

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

No, I'm not kidding about Klaus Heyne. Post on his board anonymously, and he will require you to add your name and professional affiliation to your profile, or he will delete your post.

This is a new but growing trend in the world of tech trade-related Internet forums where they are more interested in passing good information than they are in creating yet another social club.

90% of the bullshit that happens on, and is perpetrated by, Internet forum traffic happens almost solely because people are allowed to post anonymously and treat the forums as if they were role playing games like some form of The Sims or Dungeons and Dragons. It's amazing when people are actually held accounable for their own actions how much of the bullshit actually disappears.

It can have it's own drawbacks when you get forums that develop a mentality that someone can't be wrong just because they are famous, and that someone can't be right just because they aren't. The problem is that for many on forums like this one and others, people value their ego more than they value the truth.

G.

 

[mshilarious]

When I say anonymous, I mean the board admins cannot verify you are using your real name or you have the background you say you do. No ID is required and no background check is done. Filling in all the boxes doesn’t cut it.

Well, here is the difference. Click on a random thread on PSW. Click on each poster's profile. Well over half, if not 75%, will have a name posted. Most of those will have a location and a website.

So is Terry Manning fake there? William Wittman? Lavry or Albini or Massenburg (back when they used to post)? Klaus Heyne? Oliver Archut? Harvey Gerst? Who are the pros there pretending to be somebody else? There might be a few, but they are marginal, at best. The overwhelming majority there are genuine, whether they be amateurs to local pros to international stars.

And there is far, far less BS there than here or a sillier place like GS (which too has more pros than here, but also many more pretenders). And I do my part to maintain that on PSW by posting very infrequently

I tell you one thing, if anybody ever posted an offer to swap pirated software on my board, there would be a quick email to the copyright owner with their IP address . . . and something tells me certain people aren't swift enough to proxy.

 

[DavidK]

These places typically exist now in LA and Nashville. This is usually the stuff that gets air play, its the stuff the average person may own, and is usually the benchmark of quality in the minds of people who have never done HR (the few crappy pro released mixes aside). It would be easy for someone not initiated into the recording arts to believe that he/she could achieve similar results.

They can achieve similiar results. They just have to become those people.