Re-amping an entire mix?

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Somnium7

Somnium7

Noise Criminal
I was thinking about using various speakers and mics to re-amp a mix. An extreme example would be to mic up the speakers for my Hammond organ and run the mix through it's amp. Or for a less drastic effect, use my monitors and various flavored mics.

Has anybody done anything like this?

What would be the best practices to follow in attempting this?

Am I two fries short of a happy meal? :D
 
Somnium7 said:
I was thinking about using various speakers and mics to re-amp a mix. An extreme example would be to mic up the speakers for my Hammond organ and run the mix through it's amp. Or for a less drastic effect, use my monitors and various flavored mics.

Has anybody done anything like this?

What would be the best practices to follow in attempting this?

Am I two fries short of a happy meal? :D
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Pink Floyd did this with the guitar on "A momentary Lapse of Reason". I must admit, their recording really sounds terrible BUT I am a fan of trying anything. You might get away with it if you re-amp the mix and mix it in at a low volume. It could add a sense of power to the mix. I say go for it!
 
MCI2424 said:
Pink Floyd did this with the guitar on "A momentary Lapse of Reason". I must admit, their recording really sounds terrible BUT I am a fan of trying anything. You might get away with it if you re-amp the mix and mix it in at a low volume. It could add a sense of power to the mix. I say go for it!
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Hey, I like this idea. I am going to remix the song Voice of Madness:http://www.myspace.com/somnium7
When we perform this song live it has this energy to it that just kicks ass. This is what I want to capture - this live raw energy.
Folks suggested doing a live recording of it but I don't have right gear for this and more importantly the PA systems in the local dives are total crap.

I just can't seem to find a way to capture this using anything in my little studio or in my computer.
 
Somnium7 said:
Hey, I like this idea. I am going to remix the song Voice of Madness:http://www.myspace.com/somnium7
When we perform this song live it has this energy to it that just kicks ass. This is what I want to capture - this live raw energy.
Folks suggested doing a live recording of it but I don't have right gear for this and more importantly the PA systems in the local dives are total crap.

I just can't seem to find a way to capture this using anything in my little studio or in my computer.
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You are missing the live 'vibe', not the sound of speakers.

You kind of prove the point when you point out that all the PA systems locally are total crap, yet you guys sound great live. It's not the speakers.
 
Farview said:
You are missing the live 'vibe', not the sound of speakers.

You kind of prove the point when you point out that all the PA systems locally are total crap, yet you guys sound great live. It's not the speakers.
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This a good point but I feel that it's more of an acoustical issue. Our ears respond differently depending on the sound pressure level. It's possible that the *frequency response* of my ears at concert levels is to blame here.

Then there's the acoustics of the venue space to consider.

Those venues also do primarily rock and metal acts so the way they set their EQs is probably optimized for those styles instead of industrial/electronic stuff.

I have a feeling that this is the tip of the iceberg and there are many other factors I haven't thought of yet.
 
Set up in your studio, record live, get some binuaral mics and overdub vocals?
Just a suggestion
 
Somnium7 said:
This a good point but I feel that it's more of an acoustical issue. Our ears respond differently depending on the sound pressure level. It's possible that the *frequency response* of my ears at concert levels is to blame here.
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Nah, if that were the case, there'd be a magical recipe for EQ to reproduce that "vibe sound". It's not volume in and of itself either. If it were, all one would have to do is program the Fletcher-Musnson curve into an EQ to simulate/reproduce it.

A live vibe energy or sound is due mostly to three things: the fact that you *are* playing live, playing together and getting that natural feedback of energy from each other, the fact hat you're getting a band/audience energy feedback, instead of just playing to a bunch of gobos, and - the one that everyboy ignores - that you think you sound a lot better than you actually do (and so does evrybody else), because everybody has been drinking all night.

You want that live energy? You want those live acoustics and response as well? There's no better answer than to actually record yourself live on location.

Running your mix through speakers is a nice thing to experiment with, and could give you some interesting special effect results, but it's almost certainly not going to give you the "vibe" you are looking for (unlesss you combine it with a few ounces of Maker's Mark :D)

G.
 
I think you need to listen closer for the things you're missing from the live setting. Maybe it's just the enhanced low end of the booming PA for example. Or maybe it's purely the volume.

Sometimes I send drums back into the studio, basically using it as a reverb chamber to simulate room mics. Then this is blended in with the dry drum tracks. This is not a new technique.

I seriously doubt it will get you what you're after, but what the heck give it a try. Just remember not to send the live mic signal back through the monitors or it'll be feedback city. Or you'll prove us wrong and achieve full happy meal status:)
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
and - the one that everyboy ignores - that you think you sound a lot better than you actually do (and so does evrybody else), because everybody has been drinking all night.
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Good point. Back when I was playing out, we would video tape shows. Every single time we thought we played the best show ever, it sucked. When it seemed like there was no energy and we were just going through the motions, it was the best performance.

Tape yourself live, even with a camcorder. You might be suprised at the reality.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You want that live energy? You want those live acoustics and response as well? There's no better answer than to actually record yourself live on location.

Running your mix through speakers is a nice thing to experiment with, and could give you some interesting special effect results, but it's almost certainly not going to give you the "vibe" you are looking for (unlesss you combine it with a few ounces of Maker's Mark :D)

G.
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ROTFL :D
Makers Mark - now thats just excellent advice why didn't I think of that? Maybe I'll give it a try with some Hennesey while I'm at it ;)

Yeah you are probably right, I'll have to find some way to get a live recording when we start gigging again. When we practice live in my living room it doesn't really have the same vibe at all. My recording room has great sound for recording but jamming in here just doesn't sound right at all.

I think I will muck around experimentally though. The special effect aspect is kinda interesting to me considering the nature of my music.

Sometimes I send drums back into the studio, basically using it as a reverb chamber to simulate room mics. Then this is blended in with the dry drum tracks. This is not a new technique.
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Philo have you ever tried this with drum machines or drum loops? Do you think it would be helpful for giving them a more natural sound?

Thanks guys!
 
I have thought about doing this as well. not only for drums but for all of the instruments. what kinds of setups has anyone here tried? what speakers are best, volume levels, etc?
 
I haven't done it, but I have thought about it. If it were me, I'd close mic and distant mic the monitors to get some room sound. Then I'd blend those together, or perhaps just blend the room mics with the original track.
 
I would just try to record interesting sounds in the first place but I'm kinda weird that way.
 
Somnium7 said:
Hey, I like this idea. I am going to remix the song Voice of Madness:http://www.myspace.com/somnium7
When we perform this song live it has this energy to it that just kicks ass. This is what I want to capture - this live raw energy.
Folks suggested doing a live recording of it but I don't have right gear for this and more importantly the PA systems in the local dives are total crap.

I just can't seem to find a way to capture this using anything in my little studio or in my computer.
Click to expand...

Playing live creates different dynamics , ( musically and psychologically ) that generate a certain " feel " . When people are grooving live to your band, it makes everything feel just right.
Sometimes, that live energy will translate to tape, other times you hear it back and can't believe that it wasn't a better performance. Of course when you listen back , there is no cute girl shaking in front of you, and no one applauds. The energy is definitely easier to get live, but the recording can be disappointing, especially if someone forgot to tune up between songs etc.
As far as why the studio recording doesn't compare to the " feel " or sound of the live show,
there are a number of reasons that could apply. Maybe the live show feels better than it sounds. Maybe the ambience of the room gives a much larger sound to the band, than your studio can. This may not necessarily translate to the recorded sound, etc etc etc. this dilemma has plagued many musicians for many years. Good luck finding that magic sound
 
Somnium7 said:
ROTFL :D

Philo have you ever tried this with drum machines or drum loops? Do you think it would be helpful for giving them a more natural sound?

Thanks guys!
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Nope, haven't tried that. I don't really work with much besides acoustic drums.

But it's pretty simple to set up, so why not try it? Often room mics on real drum kits are treated with a healthy dose of compression so you might try that too. Watch that it doesn't add too much mud or harshness. You may have to do a little eq. Or not.
 
So far I haven't yet experimented with micing up the monitors but I plan to try it this evening.
A few things I have tried though are giving promising results in regards to making the mix more energetic and lively.
1. I setup a drum bus in my DAW and plugged in a maximizer. It's set with -1.8 dB threshold and 20 ms release. This gave a bit of extra punch to the drums but made them woofy sounding. On my analog console I cut 400 hz by 5 dB and this fixed the woofiness perfectly. Overall theres a tighter feel now.

2. Double-tracked the distorted lead synth. The tracks were panned hard right and left and a junky 12 bit reverb added via the send. The reverb was set for it's instrument plate preset and decay set to about half a second. Since the synth was being distorted with an analog stomp box there are wonderful variations between the two tracks and the grainy reverb accentuates them somewhat. This track now sounds huge and pretty close to what I hear playing live - very happy with this.

3. re-recorded the vocal track with natural room ambience. This sounds subtle but adds enough dimension that I didn't need to apply further reverb during the verses. While this sound doesn't really match what I remember of the live sound I do like it regardless and it does add to the overall livelyness of the song to a small degree.

I'm still working on this mix, and hope to find time for experiments tonight. I'll post more later to let you know how it works out.
 
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