Good cheap stuff? how do you drummers do it?

  • Thread starter Thread starter CoolCat
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I'm gonna hop on the bandwagon here and say go with nice cymbals and slowly build up the set. As for the kick, I gave in, bought a double Iron Cobra about 2 years ago, and it has not faltered one bit since the day I got it. Buy nice equipment and he'll be less tempted to beat it up. Buy cheap stuff and you'll just be spending more money in the long run.

And not dissing electronic drums, but if he's young, give him a real set. It might be a bit of a pain, but he'll get better. Electronic sets would just break, even a top-of-the-line one. Trust me, I've seen it done.
 
Don't buy a cracked cymbal unless you are looking for whatever sound it makes (as an example a cracked cymbal can kinda sound like a China cymbal) - but as indicated, you can't fix it and it can only crack more.

I think a young drummer needs real acoustic drums (not electronic) - for several reasons:

1) There is more instant "gratification" from an acoustic set (ie: loud noise = fun), which will stimulate a child to play more than an e-kit, E-kits simply are not as much fun to play as acoustic kits. (I've owned many acoustic & electronic kits - and while each has their place - acoustics are always more enjoyable to play).

2) The technique needed for an e-kit is different than an acoustic kit in several subtle but fundamental ways ("ghost notes" being one example) - you can not learn proper technique on an electronic kit - regardless of the levels of programmable sensitivity.

3) Electronic kits can not take much abuse at all. In the original post there was a reference that the kid would "beat the hell out of" cymbals - if that is a possible indication of the kids approach to drums - then an e-kit would not stand a chance. In general - younger drummers simply don't have the control, or temperment to play e-drums. While I believe proper tecnique is important - the fact is when you'rr young and full of enery, the tendancy is to hit the drums harder than needed (hell, many older drummers still hit the drums waaay harded than needed) - which simply does not work well with e-drums.
 
He has ZHT Ride and ZHT Crash.... and HiHats are Zildjian A "Recording" 12" something with the bottom one cracked (used).

He clarified its the 20" Ride ZHT, he dislikes (though it sounds fine to me?)
and the Crash 18" ZHT...which I find similar to having someone poke me in the ear with a toothpick...

So its more focused on Ride and Crash then the hi-hat. then some wierd one that looks upside down..

I haven't had much luck on Craigslist? search continues...thanks for inputs,
 
There was some nice stuff on cymbalcellar.com at least a few days ago. They have sound files of the actual cymbals. I bought a splash there, the file was pretty accurate, but a little smoother-sounding than real life.
 
COOLCAT said:
My son started playing drums a bit more serious. Last year I posted here and got inputs on a good drum set upgrade from his first two pos sets. This one is like a real one.

Ok he changed some heads and even I could hear a nice difference.
So I kind of understand drums or at least could hear a improvement.

So now he's mentioning frkn cymbals and stands and maybe even a better snare, a foot pedal.....fhk??!!!!!!!!!!!!

Help me out here!! Whats the cheap good stuff? I mean he points at a $700 cymbal pack!!:eek: and then he said "its crazy....because all I'm going to do is beat the hell out of them."

He got disappointed because the stuff is so costly and he doesn't have a job.

I look at from a guitarist standpoint and all I have to do is change $6 strings.

Damn!!...how do you drummers do it? and whats the good cheap stuff.....is there such a thing as a good cymbal pack for $150? good snares for $100? good pedals for $50? good stands for $25?

like guitars if you look and search there's frkn dyn-o-mite guitars now for $100, and pickups for $30 that will last a lifetime.
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Check out Stagg DH cymbals. They're great for the price. Forget any other staggs though. Does he want a double pedal? You should be able to find a decent one for not too bad. If he has a metal snare i can see why you'd want to upgrade, but to be honest, if you can't get a good sound with a metal snare, then a wooden one won't be much better. I'd suggest learning to tune them correctly and do that for a few years before you think about getting a new snare. And by that time, you(he) might want to upgrade to a whole new kit.

How we do it... I don't know. What ever money I get, I save until I have enough to buy the new thing I want. That's the same with anything for me really.

... ohh and the upside down cymbal is a china.
 
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I'll add in that I have been very impressed with Dream Cymbals, which are chinese made, hand hammered cymbals, and sound much better than the 'major brand name' entry level crap (zht etc) while being much cheaper in price.
Do a search on the intarweb and read up on them, they're not that well known yet but they're on the way.

Beyond pawn shops there is also Music go Round and craigslist (for the adventurous) craig's has been very nice to me as far as getting good cymbal deals as both MGR and the pawn shops will mark up to a high price, and then you can talk them down 10 or 20 per-cent, whereas joe blow may not... eg: I just scored a 20" Crash of Doom for $100 here and they usually ebay for around $150 before shipping. MGR used to be nice to me but then the stuff I used to score there probably ends up on ebay now...

Cracked cymbals, if they are cracked along the edge, and no more than a half inch, CAN be repaired, but it's a bit of a hassle.

I had a nice run of $10-each-from-MGR Zildjian A 18" medium crashes that were all cracked in the same place: about 1 cm in length from the edge straight in a line towards the bell... Get a drinking cup out, draw a smiley on the cymbal - halving the cup on the edge & centering it on the crack, then get a dremel tool with a cutting wheel and go to work. When you're done with cutting smooth the edges with some sandpaper and !viola, good as new.
 
unfortunately, unlike cheap guitars.....cheap drums can't really ever rise above what they are. the shells are the most important component to the drum's tone, and cheap is cheap. you can't simply buy a cheap drum and swap out the electronics like you can a guitar. sure you can put new hoops and heads on there, which will help somewhat, but the tone is in the shell.....and if there's no tone there, well.....

the same goes for cymbals. cheap cymbals sound cheap--they're harsh, tinny and aggressive (and not in a good way).

cracked cymbals = broken cymbals. don't bother with them.

the best solution is to buy used.....and to buy good stuff. good drums and cymbals should last for YEARS. i've had cymbals for 20+ years now, and one of my drum kits is a late 60's Ludwig.

drums and cymbals (much more than guitars) fall under the "buy cheap, buy twice" category. if you buy cheap, you WILL be replacing it at some point, either due to tonal/sonic shortcomings or b/c it gets broken.

how old is your son? maybe it's time to introduce him to the merits of a part-time job? :D


cheers,
wade
 
When the Levee Breaks--greatest drum song ever
when the lights go out--the black keys; like a blusier version of when the levee breaks
paradise city--guns n' roses. simple as hell, but it worked like magic
the wolf is loose--mastodon, brann dailor. first second of the first song on Blood Mountain. Awesome.
run to the hills--iron fuppin' maiden
 
he's got a offer for a PTjob so yeah maybe....thats another thread:rolleyes:

forwarded the posts and introduced him to this idea of good-cheap used stuff being better than new crap junk

ZIldjian A's seem to be common on craigslist.. etc.

I don't know the names, and appreciate the other brands that would be a good "mid" level name being mentioned.

but there was a Zildjian A 20" for around $80. Craigslist, seems to be the cheapest way. reading the posts this is an ok price.

noticed some cymbals don't have the decal on them anymore...is this a scam?
 
IloveJesus said:
There's a reason they put BAM BAM on the drums when the Flintstone children formed a band.

Most drummers beat the heck out of their drums and have no sense of volume or technique. They play at volume 11, even during ballads.


Personally, I think kids should be on electronic drums with good digital samples. Let them learn that way.


Once they are really good, get them the expensive stuff.

But what's the point of getting a 16-year-old a Ferrari if he can't even drive a Mazda well?
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I don't think this is very good advice.
 
Agreed. There's more to playing the drums that just hitting them on time. A good drummer knows how to hit the drum or cymbal to bring out a certain sound and feel. Electronic drums don't tend to offer this dynamic, and sound the same no matter how you hit them.

On this issue of expense. I had a set of lower cost Pearl Exports from the time I started playing. They sounded ok, but I was never fully satisfied. When I switched to a custom Yamaha kit it blew me away how good a more expensive kit can sound. The excitement factor increased significantly.

If you take care of your kit it will last a long time. And there's really no point in beating the crap out of a kit. That's just poor playing.
 
COOLCAT said:
I mean he points at a $700 cymbal pack!!:eek: and then he said "its crazy....because all I'm going to do is beat the hell out of them."
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This is the problem that needs to be addressed right here!

You don't get to own expensive, good sounding gear if you're going to have this attitude. Tell him, "If all you're going to do is beat the hell out of something because you have aggression you need to release, then I'm buying you crap, and it will sound like crap, because that's exactly how you're going to treat it.".

Would you buy a $3000 Les Paul for a kid knowing his intent was to smash on stage at the first show?

A real musician has respect for a real instrument and therefore deserves to own and play it. Drum sticks are consumables, not cymbals. Drum heads are replaceable, not drums. You should be able to keep drums and cymbals in good condition all your life.

Until he adjusts his views on playing he's not ready to own anything good and you have no obligation to provide quality gear if it's just going to be used like notebook paper. When he learns control and skill, then he deserves to pro gear. That is, after all, what makes a true musician.
 
Somebody that beats the hell out of cymbals and drums..

is not a drummer or musician, they're a muppet.... named Animal. ;-)
 
Aw no, give him credit - Ronnie Verrel is a great drummer, one of the very few to impress Buddy Rich in a challenge!

As for cheap kits and cymbals - I don't think it's fair to say 'guitars are easier to upgrade' or whatever - drums are an acoustic instrument, and an acoustic guitar is shit or good, black or white.
Pearl Export or Mapex Voyager get my vote, they won't break the bank but they can hold their own in many gigging situations. Borrow something nicer for recording though!
 
well...

different strokes for different folks. Get the most affordable thing that sounds good, if he beats them in a way that causes them to break he'll learn to not do that anymore.

Or, he could be like plenty of successful musicians/artists/wankers who beat their gear up, get a great sound by doing what people are saying is *puts monocle in eye* playing wrong / poorly, and realize what that takes.


First of all, there are plenty of cymbals out there that would take punishment from the heaviest of heavy hitters. So the worry that he's going to break his stuff is when you buy professional grade THIN cymbals and he overplays them. Don't get those. I used to break sticks, drum heads, and even broke a few cymbals because I had fun beating up my drums every once in a while.

Don't do any of that anymore, because you learn how to hit the cymbals so they sound LOUD without hitting them hard. Or that really, you don't need to hit the cymbals hard nor loud because of this grand invention called the microphone.




PS > a crack in a cymbal can be fixed by cutting it out and notching it properly. sometimes by filling it in. You could even keep playing on the crack so long as it doesn't make any strange sounds, but it is only going to keep tearing and ripping.

Even though you're supposed to hit the cymbal in a swiping motion so that the force travels from the point of impact around the cymbal, sometimes it is unavoidable to not hit it straight down, dead on like you're banging a drum, which creates pressure from the point of impact straight back to the center. This is why a lot of cracks start near the middle of the cymbal, its the highest pressure point second only to the edge which can tear easily on thinner (or cheaper) cymbals.


Besides, the number one enemy of a starting drummer that causes them to play loudly is their goofy friends turning their amps up too loud. Its easy and non-damaging for them to be so loud, but a drummer playing louder on cheap gear really racks up the bills.


I don't have specific gear advice, because I started out with my "drumset budget" getting me a middle of the road snare. So I literally hit a heavy pot lid for my ride. When I finally got a kit it was a cheap nearly-toy kit that literally had more sturdiness hitting the heads than if you hit the side of the drums - they were paper thin ;P

From there on I've kept one or two nice kits and cymbals literally involve me going to a store and whacking them with a specific sound for a specific project in mind.

The heaviest cymbals that will withstand a lot of punishment that I've used are the zildjian Rock cymbals, but they're expensive.
 
Interesting how the kits build up and different stories of finally gettin a decent kit put together, piece by piece.

as far as cracking and poor skills...maybe if he paid for his own cymbals he'd be a bit more concerned about breaking them?

seems nearly everyone agrees or goes to a SNARE of decent to best quality one can get.

I been watching process on Craigslist some Zild "A" seem to come in most frequent around $80 to $100 used.
 
COOLCAT said:
I been watching process on Craigslist some Zild "A" seem to come in most frequent around $80 to $100 used.
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yep, that's a pretty good cymbal for a pretty good price. as for the decals, the older zildjians don't have them (i have one such crash), but there should be a stamp somewhere on it--as in, an imprinted cast stamp. it'll be pretty small (maybe one square inch), but if it's really a zildjian it'll be there. mine reads:

(arabic lettering)
avedis
zildjian co
(a word i can't make out--the stamp is about half worn off)
turkish cymbals
made in usa

as far as cracking and poor skills...maybe if he paid for his own cymbals he'd be a bit more concerned about breaking them?
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i think you're onto something here...:D

good luck! :)
 
COOLCAT said:
as far as cracking and poor skills...maybe if he paid for his own cymbals he'd be a bit more concerned about breaking them?
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that's EXACTLY why i suggested the part-time job. you take care of things more when you've shelled out your hard earned cabbage for em.

COOLCAT said:
seems nearly everyone agrees or goes to a SNARE of decent to best quality one can get.
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TOTALLY. the snare is the thing you smack the most. it's the thing that defines the back beat of the song. the snare, imo, is the most crucial drum. that's why i have several (and am always looking for more). most session drummers have upwards of 20 or more. for a drum/guitar comparison, the snare is the most like a guitar in that sometimes you need the tele, and sometimes you need the ES335. :D

COOLCAT said:
I been watching process on Craigslist some Zild "A" seem to come in most frequent around $80 to $100 used.
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i'd say that's generally a good ballpark for them. depends on what they are, exactly, their vintage, condition, etc......but A's are solid 'everyday' cymbals.


cheers,
wade
 
Rimshot said:
Stay away from cymbal packs. They are for beginners that don't know anything.
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thats a little harsh man! what about providing a common tonality and a matched sound? the kid is still a kid and cymbal packs should be fine for him i'd hope. it also helps save money like the guy is shooting for. (im not trying to attack u rimshot, the rest of what you said was ace :cool: )

buying used is one way to save money. hardware and stands used to be made much heavier and of higher quality than today's cheaply made crap. check out local shops and take a look at used gear if available.

my best advice for getting good sound out of cheaper products is to tweak it and customize it. sometimes the heads make more a difference than the shells. as far as bass drum pedals go... used might be a smart way to go. you get what you pay for and thats the reality of the situation i suppose

just my 2 cents :)

-random
 
I try to buy everything used. I was able ot get a "600 dollar" AAX cymbal pack or however much they are for 300 dollars in perfect condition. i have a 300 dollar cb drumset, which isnt that great, but ive gotten many compliments on the sound of it becuase i can make it sound pretty good when i tune it up good. if you are looking for a single bass pedal, you could definitely find one for 50 bucks, probably find a good used one for that price.

If you think about it, yea they are more expensive, but for a nice guitar setup, if you want the bare necesities you need a guitar and an amp assuming you are going electric, which you can certainly spend a lot on.
 
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