Pop-filter to record closer to soundhole?

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danny.guitar

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This is probably a stupid question.

But I think the best sound on acoustic comes from miking the soundhole, although, I can usually only do this when playing really soft pieces or it just sounds really bad, for obvious reasons.

Do you think a pop filter would allow me to mic closer to the soundhole and be able to play a little louder that way? :confused:
 
no. try moving the mic farther away. if it sounds really bad, then it's obviously not the best sound/mic position. move it a couple inches up the fretboard instead of right at the soundhole.
 
A pop filter won't help with the air that comes from the soundhole? I don't plan on miking right up on the sound hole, just like 8" away from it or so. The guitar sounds so much better when miking like this. A night & day difference to me.

But unfortunately there is just too much air coming from the soundhole to record anything louder than a whisper.
 
theres really not a gust of air that comes out of the soundhole that a pop-filter would help with. not like a plosive "P" or something you'd get on a vocal take. are you getting an audible distortion? clipping? maybe use less gain, and back the mic more than 8" for sure, at least a foot.
 
It's not really distortion and the levels aren't clipping, but it just sounds really harsh and bad, and I'm afraid of playing too loud cause I don't want to mess up my microphone. At a foot distance, you lose all the detail and sound that miking the soundhole gives. :(

I guess there's no solution. :( I haven't tried turning the gain down that much, but I imagine it won't help much but it's worth a shot.

Thanks zed.
 
yeah dude, that's just a characteristic of micing the soundhole, you gotta move the mic around til you find a spot that gives you the detail you want with the depth you're looking for. try different angles and locations until you get what you're after. a pop-filter isnt gonna help though.
 
yeah, a pop filter isn't going to do anything for that. Honestly, I think you're approaching this a bit backwards. You gave up on something really easy and basic.

For example, if you're getting a harsh sound, there's a number of things that can be off here. So I would rethink my approach:


-Problem: The mic you're using may not be giving you the results you're looking for.

Solution: Go into your mic selection and don't be afraid to pick out another one and swap it out.

-Problem: Your micing technique needs re-evaluation. The idea that the soundhole of an acoustic guitar produces the most important sound of an acoustic guitar is not true by any means.


-Solution:

The entire instrument produces the sound.

The combination of the strings vibrating over the sound hole, the attack of the pick (or fingers) on the strings, the notes resonating and amplifying inside the body coupled with the body resonating and "breathing" those notes back outward makes your final composite sound.

The soundhole only acts like an acoustic speaker. And just like any speaker cab, the material the cabinet's made from also resonates which creates that specific overall sound.

Many times in situations where your miked sounds are translating harsh on playback, then your emphasing the harsh aspects of that instrument. In this case, the sound hole. So use your ear. You have to move that mic around until you've found a good blend between the soundhole and the rest of the body. It may actually take more than one mic to do that.

For all we know, that sweet spot might end up being down the hall, jammed inside the washing machine, with another mic shoved in a closet. You never know until you take your headphones, turn them up, jack up your pre, then take your mic and move it around until the guitar sounds good.

Remember, you can EQ with mic axis. If it sounds a little too harsh, then bring the mic a little off axis and listen.

Personally, I'd aim about 6-12inchs off the 12th fret at about 45 degrees off axis. I usually have a good low end response mic behind the guitar player micing the back of the body as a second mic. With those two mics in conjunction, with thier phase issues working together the way they do, it gives me a very organic and pleasant sound. Pretty true to the real thing. Honestly, that's my sound on acoustic guitar, so yours may be different.

Of course, I figured that out through tons of experimentation. So that time you're using throwing in the towel could be spent experimenting.


You see, when something's harsh, it helps to give it air....give it space. Rather than close micing this thing, get the mic further away and use your space to help soften the signal. If the room dosn't work, then figure out ways to make it work for you. Or try another room.

- Problem: Your instrument may need a second look.

Solution: You'd be surprised at just how many people don't understand how much similar made instruments can vary in different situations. Tempurature, tuning, how you string it up, what types of strings, the condition of the actual instrument. Shit, you may just need a softer pick? Who knows.

Even among exact copies, you're going to get incredible differences. The problem is most people don't hear it unless it's pointed out to them. No two Les Paul standards are exactly the same, no two Dean Martin special edition whatevers are ever the same, so no mic technique is ever exactly the same.

So take a look at the guitar, play it, listen to it. I mean really listen to it. You may need to do something to it to make it sound recorder friendly.

This may help or may not. Don't let it discourage you.
 
Thanks, Lee. You're correct on all accounts. I've been recording just acoustic for a few years now, and believe me, I've tried pretty much every mic placement there is. ;)

I think to get the best, full, tone out of my guitar, miking the sound hole is the answer. I can get good sounds with other mic placements like at the neckjoint, but the soundhole sounds much "richer".

The mic is great, and my guitar is capable of getting decent sounds for some stuff.

But by harsh I mean, the air hitting the mic just reproduces a really bad sound. With other mic positions, this doesn't happen. I like your posts about off-axis miking though very helpful. I never really bothered to think about it like that.

I think I'll post a clip in a few so you guys can hear what I'm talking about.
 
I think I'll post a clip in a few so you guys can hear what I'm talking about.

Sure thing. Clips and info are always a good help.


I'm not gonna lie, I do feel bad sometimes in situations like this, because of my indepth explinations based on personal experiences and I get the vibe like I leave people like :confused:.

Whereas in person it would be so much easier and really fast. In 2 minutes it'd be setup with time to be like, "alright, let's go down the street and pick up a case of Yengling".
 
Your post didn't leave me confused at all, I think it was very informative. I knew a lot of stuff in there but there were also some good things mentioned like EQing with mic axis. I normally keep my mic parallel to the floor at a 90 degree angle, I think I'll try some different off-axis approaches though and see what I can come up with.

The best balance of sound I've gotten on this guitar is about 4" from the neckjoint, or 17th fret. Not as rich as the soundhole but it still has the best balance of lows & highs and detail.

Might have to wait until tomorrow to post a clip since everyone is already asleep.
 
Hey Danny, while you try (if you do) Lee's micing technique (sounds interesting), try this one out too: stereo X-Y pair somewhere around the neck joint (I use some cheap Behri C2's with "decent" results) and another mic (I use a LDC for this one) at the end of the neck at a 45 degree angle pointed to right around where the nut is. I've got a really boomy acoustic (don't know your situation) and this setup has given me the best sound so far. There are a few minor issues with phase, but if you can work them out it sounds pretty good.
 
I agree that the best sound, from my Martin anyway, comes from close to the soundhole. But, that area is also quite boomy. Try what I do. Place the mic "close" to the soundhole, but don't point the mic diaphram right at the soundhole. Point the mic toward some other direction so that the sound does not travel directly into the mic diaphram. The sound sorta travels "over" the diaphram. I've made some of my best sound with the mic about 8in from the soundhole with the mic diaphram pointing toward the floor.
 
only vaguely related.........

but i ovten put pop filters above (not in front of) mic's on an acu because when people breath thru thier nose, you'll get the wind sound in the mic.
if things are lined up and what not.

and sound hole, on a lightly picked solo piece maybe. but usually i find it to be way too boomy.
ymmv
 
What mics are you using for recording, out of curiosity?

I can understand why you might think a pop filter would work over the sound hole of the acoustic... a bass drum has a hole in the front head, and a gust of air comes out of that guy - of course, the difference is that the acoustic doesn't have internal compression do to something hitting the back of the guitar and forcing air out :D

One odd technique I discovered recently is that, when using two Naiant MSH-1's, if I place one down by the bottom of the guitar (where the end-pin is), and point one of the mics 45 degrees at the joint b/w guitar top & side (maybe slightly toward the top), I get a very nice top-end to blend in with the neck mic, which picks up all the bass I could possibly need. If I move that mic back to the bridge, my overall sound is far too mid-range-ee. Just one more of about a billion ways to try and mic these things :rolleyes:
 
Yo Danny! I too, have spent a fair amount of time recording acoustic, and my immediate gut response to your question was- No. But then I asked myself-Why? Because the sound hole is more like the bass port in a speaker cabinet than it is like a singer's mouth, and the excessive bass picked up at that location creates boom, an effect more related to low frequency rumble than moving air. It is not conventional wisdom to mic there, although various pickups have been placed in soundholes for years.
Then I asked myself-Richie, have you ever done it? The answer was no, of course, because it's not conventional wisdom. So my first answer is-Just do it, then tell us what happened. It should take all of 10 minutes, and it is unlikely to hurt the guitar or the mic. Home studios are places built so you will have the time to experiment. Then I asked myself- If I was mic'ing a bass port, what kind of mic would I use? The answer is a bass mic, probably AKG D112, because it's what I have. So rather than speculating about the results of something I've never done, I advise you to try it. What have you got to lose except those 10 minutes? I doubt a pop filter will have any effect, because there isn't that much moving air involved, but try it with and without a pop filter, and make sure one of the mics you try is a dedicated low frequency mic. Then post back and tell us what happened. What the hell?-Richie
 
It's not really distortion and the levels aren't clipping, but it just sounds really harsh and bad, and I'm afraid of playing too loud cause I don't want to mess up my microphone. At a foot distance, you lose all the detail and sound that miking the soundhole gives. :(

I guess there's no solution. :( I haven't tried turning the gain down that much, but I imagine it won't help much but it's worth a shot.
Danny, everyone here is right in saying that there are no plosives, in fact very little sound at all that come from the sound hole itself. The vast majority of the sound of the guitar comes from the face of the guitar body itself as it is resonated by the strings through the saddle and bridge. As such, a pop filter will do little to nothing to improve your sound, since that's not the cause of the problem.

You state the cause of the problem yourself in that first sentence: "It's not really distortion and the levels aren't clipping, but it just sounds really harsh and bad."

You claim to not be distorting and to not be clipping or tracking hot. You're one of the sharpest guys here; if you say that's true, it's most likely itrue. That means, thereofre that you simply are picking up a harsh and bas sound from the guitar itself, which means only one thing; you need to move the mic.

I personally find miking the sound hole with anything but a piezo to usually sound far boomier and muddier than I like, but if it works OK with your guitar and your tastes, more power to you. But it sounds to me like you either a) need to fine tune your mic positioning a bit, 2) try a different mic, or iii) accept that for some reason (temperature, humidity, string life, etc.) your guitar just does not sound quite the same as it did the last time, and is begging for a different mic location this time.

That last one actually is not uncommon with acoutics in less-than-well-controlled environments. I have found myself that it's wise not to get married to a single mic position for a given guitar, because the git can get tempermental on you that way.

G.
 
I've pretty much gone exclusively omni's when close micing acoustic guitar. The proximity effect is a non-issue and lets you get as close as you like. I throwing this up if what you're hearing is simply too much boom. These days I'm favoring a spaced pair. One at the neck joint and one between the bridge and sound hole.
 
Boom is only partially a function of proximity effect. It is also a function of how sound is created and reflected by the various parts of a flat top guitar. You can get rid of more boom by using an arched top guitar than you can by using an omni mic. One other solution is to use a flat top with an offset sound hole, like a McPherson. Then you can close mic the center of the soundboard without being right on the soundhole, which is the whole pont of that design. You get a lot of pick noise, though.-Richie
 
Thanks for all the responses everyone. :)

I like getting that "click" sound of the pick hitting the strings, which is another reason why I like miking near the soundhole.

After recording a couple of short clips, one at the soundhole, and the other right at the edge of it, I think I like the latter better. The soundhole does sound boomy. But for really, really soft playing I still think it sounds the best, even after recording & listening to these clips.

Anyway, I uploaded a couple of MP3s of just messing around with some chords at each mic position.

Soundhole:


Neckjoint:


Both have a little boom going on. But the 2nd one allows me to play a little louder before it starts to sound like ass.

I can guess everyone will think the 2nd one sounds better. But I'd still like to hear your opinions, and suggestions on improving the sound.

Edit:

If anyone is interested, the signal chain was: Behringer ECM8000 -> DMP3 -> Audiophile 24/96 -> Reaper at 44.1/24-bit, no FX just normalized when converting to MP3.

There is more boom than I'd like I probably should have spent a little more time setting the mic up like I usually do but oh well.
 
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