Sitting Vocals in a Mix

[Ironklad Audio]

along with compression/EQ, mic selection can play a massive role in making vocals work in the mix

a couple years ago in a recording class of mine, i engineered and mixed a few songs for another kid in my class...i was there for eveything but the vocal tracking, and of course for that they used a neumann M149, because it was the most expensive mic there

come mix time, the vocal track didn't gel AT ALL with the rest of it...rather than sitting IN the mix, it was like the vocal track was in its own little bubble, sitting on top of everything else. i spent a couple of hours trying different eq/compression combos, but to no avail. i wish they would've just used a 57 or something.

 

[danny.guitar]

I find that getting vocals to fit (and I have limited experience since I don't sing) is about getting the dynamics of both the vocals, (especially the vocals) and the backing instruments fairly consistent. I use volume automation to get the levels correct.

To not get that "karaoke" thing with vocals, the levels have to be perfect. From there, a slight EQ on the other tracks except vocals, around the 800Hz-1Khz range (as Ethan said) really opens a lot of space for the vocals to fit in. I don't do any kind of boost in that area on the vocals, in fact, I've never EQ'd a vocal track, ever.

Too much of a cut on the backing track will just do the opposite of what you want and give it a karaoke sound.

I'm probably the only one, but I zoom in real far to do the volume automation on the vocal track to get the levels really consistent and only use compression to "fatten" them up or give a thicker sound if they need it. Although, using a proper mic and mic technique will give that naturally.

That's just my 2cents (from very limited experience). I think I've mixed about 4 different songs with vocals, but in mine (and the singer's) opinion I did a very good job.

 

[MCI2424]

Last thread I posted turned into a flamewar. Perhaps this one will be different..

In most cases, I record the music for an entire song and only then record the vocals. My mixes before the vocals get in sound great. When I try to lay the vocals into the mix, the vocals seem to get lost and don't have the presence and "umph" of the other tracks.

Note - I DO leave room for them in terms of music arrangement. There are "holes" where the lyrics come in. All lyrics and the vocal melody are written before the music, so there is definitely room for them and the vocals aren't an afterthought.

I've got a few decent large dia condenser mics in the $150-$250 range. Not the best, but surely not the worst. I'm also running through a decent tube preamp.

Any ideas? Thanks!

Use the parallel compression method. This should clear up the placement in the mix.

 

[ecktronic]

along with compression/EQ, mic selection can play a massive role in making vocals work in the mix

a couple years ago in a recording class of mine, i engineered and mixed a few songs for another kid in my class...i was there for eveything but the vocal tracking, and of course for that they used a neumann M149, because it was the most expensive mic there

come mix time, the vocal track didn't gel AT ALL with the rest of it...rather than sitting IN the mix, it was like the vocal track was in its own little bubble, sitting on top of everything else. i spent a couple of hours trying different eq/compression combos, but to no avail. i wish they would've just used a 57 or something.

Yeah proper vocal booths are really needed when using sensitive mics.
An SM57 would most likely work much better in the mix.

Eck

 

[Somnium7]

Last thread I posted turned into a flamewar. Perhaps this one will be different..

In most cases, I record the music for an entire song and only then record the vocals. My mixes before the vocals get in sound great. When I try to lay the vocals into the mix, the vocals seem to get lost and don't have the presence and "umph" of the other tracks.

Note - I DO leave room for them in terms of music arrangement. There are "holes" where the lyrics come in. All lyrics and the vocal melody are written before the music, so there is definitely room for them and the vocals aren't an afterthought.

I've got a few decent large dia condenser mics in the $150-$250 range. Not the best, but surely not the worst. I'm also running through a decent tube preamp.

Any ideas? Thanks!

Wow, it's neat that you seem to have a very similar workflow as me.
My first thought here is to look harder at those other tracks. I find this problem in my own stuff all the time. What I do is turn all tracks except the vocals down to about half their former level and start bring them back up a few at a time while concentrating on the vocal track. If you have a good control surface or a hardware mixer this is easier to do.
While I am doing this I am trying to listen for vocals that fit in the mix but can jump-out where appropriate.

Once I have all tracks at levels I like I now start to play with the vocal track. I begin with panning. Sometimes just a little tweak off center can do wonders. Other times I need to make a duplicate of the same track and pan it and the original about 13 to 20% apart. This won't give you a double vocal sound if you keep it all lined up tight in time but it will make a place in the mix for the vocals if there is alot going on in the other tracks.

Now comes EQ and Reverb. These can be really powerful if used with care. Using EQ find the dominant range of frequencies in the vocal track by boosting up real high and sweeping across the spectrum. Listen for the voice to get really peaky and overwhelming and you should have it. Now adjust the EQ back to flat and try a little cut and a little boost at that frequency and decide which works better for the mix.
On the reverb for the vocal tracks be sure to first set high and low filter. I limit the reverb to between 250hz and 3K. Solo the vocal track with reverb active and a wet to dry like 80 to 20 percent so it's more reverb than anything. Now set the predelay time and level to something you like the sound of. I try to make the predelay work with the tempo. Now un-solo the track and adjust you wet dry mix and decay till you get the vocals to blend with the mix. I find 0.5 seconds decay and a 14% wet can do wonders sometimes. This really is a matter of taste though.

Once you have all the above to a place that sound good try using a multi-band compressor plugin on the entire mix. Set one band for the same frequency as you did for the EQ before. Adjust the compression to taste. This is a nice way to control sibilance too.

None of this may work for you and maybe some people can have a good laugh over it but it is what I find works for me most of the time. I have resorted to using a touch of chorus too from time to time. Sue me!

As far as mics go, obviously it's the most important part of your recording chain. The better your mic is the better your recordings will be if you know how to use it properly. On my music I use an AKG dynamic stage mic to record my wife's vocals. I don't care for it but my wife loves that damn thing, she says it sounds great on her. Soooo, I do the best I can with it and believe it or not most of the nice comments we get on our music through Myspace are for the vocals. Go figure.

 

[nomsans]

wow i am really impressed with all the helpful tips and advice around here!

i am quite ignorant to the proper terminologies of hoem recording though...im trying to follow along what you do to the vocals...because, i too record vocals, and am always looking to learn how to do things better, but i dont really understand all of the lingo.
i never took classes or anythig and learned everythig meself. i use cool edit and a mic. here is a link to my music:

http://www.701studios.com/music/hometopittsburgh.html

all i did to the vocals was:
(after i had all the instruments recorded etc>)
i recorded in the downstairs bathroom. (it is tall and skinny and kinda resembles a real vocal booth except with a toilet). once recorded, i added a slight 'natural' echoe and a very slight chorus with only two maybe three voices. thats it. i did record a vocal harmony...and i plan on recording a third part harmony. but thats all i pretty much did.

but...i am a complete noob compared to all of you and your fancy words. hehe.
and i am 'really' glad i found ths website!

 

[Sinistah]

wow i am really impressed with all the helpful tips and advice around here!

i am quite ignorant to the proper terminologies of hoem recording though...im trying to follow along what you do to the vocals...because, i too record vocals, and am always looking to learn how to do things better, but i dont really understand all of the lingo.
i never took classes or anythig and learned everythig meself. i use cool edit and a mic. here is a link to my music:

http://www.701studios.com/music/hometopittsburgh.html

all i did to the vocals was:
(after i had all the instruments recorded etc>)
i recorded in the downstairs bathroom. (it is tall and skinny and kinda resembles a real vocal booth except with a toilet). once recorded, i added a slight 'natural' echoe and a very slight chorus with only two maybe three voices. thats it. i did record a vocal harmony...and i plan on recording a third part harmony. but thats all i pretty much did.

but...i am a complete noob compared to all of you and your fancy words. hehe.
and i am 'really' glad i found ths website!

i'm at my day job so i can't hear your actual audio due to restrictions on the PC, but don't worry, i have no technical knowledge of 99% of the stuff i know in regards to recording/mixing.....

and i too started out with cool edit and a shitty PC mic, then a $50 all purpose dynamic mic, and upgraded to an AKG perception 400....

switched from Cool Edit to Adobe Auditions 2.0 same shit different company takeover for the most part and to this day, i still record from my bedroom, with alot of clutter, and no room treatment whatsoever.

i learned most of my stuff from self-researching, and then a ton of stuff from the good peeps of this board, i'm still a Newb, but trust me i've learned that you gotta ask questions to get answers, as obvious as that is, there was a time i was kinda skeptical about askin stuff, especially on here where a foolish question is likely to turn into Jokefest 2008!!!

but hey, anything i can learn from regardless if it's out of embarrassment or sincerity is worth it!!!

 

[Ironklad Audio]

Yeah proper vocal booths are really needed when using sensitive mics.

i don't understand what a vocal booth has to do with what i was talking about...in fact, i'm pretty sure that the vox were either cut in the iso booth, or with gobos set up in the main room

the issue was someone grabbing for the most expensive mic available, and assuming it would produce the best results