Idea for isolation booth

[undrgrnd studio]

OK I'm moving in a couple of weeks from a 2bd apartment to a 3bd. I have about 150 sq ft of space in the basement currently for my studio. Which sucks. It's 10' X 15' . But when I move I will have the opportunity to finish the basement plus I will gain about 100 sq ft down there. I'm planning on taking half the total basement which is about 17' X 15'. Now seeing as this is an apartment and factoring in how much my last neighbors hated me for the noise. I decided I will build an interior room within my side of the finished basement. My basic idea is this:

I will make it large enough to place my small drum kit in, with enough room left over to take an amp in when I need to for loud guitar recording. I will also use this space to record vocals. I realize I will have issues with the drums vibrating from being in the same room as the guitars or vocals, but I'll just turn off the snare and maybe cover the rest of the kit with a heavy blanket or something when I need to.

The size will be somewhere around 8' X 8', or 8' X 10' . I don't have enough room to do more than that, because I will be building this free standing instead of using existing walls.

The plan is to build a platform from 2X4's and plywood. I also might place rubber down on the floor. Then frame 2X4 walls and a ceiling. One solid door good for sound reduction. Drywall on the outside, (insulation between) drywall on the inside. I will use two plexi glass pieces for the windows (one of the inside and one on the outside) which I plan to install across nearly two whole walls so that the drummer can have visual contact with whoever he's playing with.

And then after it's built I'll try to deaden the space. I have no idea what to use for that yet, it has to be really inexpensive though. So we'll see what I can afford after I spend the money on the room itself. Even if it has no sound deadening it will be better than my cement basement.

I figure if I build a room off the floor, not connected to any walls, and not connected to the ceiling I will drastically cut down the noise level in my neighbors apartments on either side.

So what do you think of my theory and plan? Am I on the right track here?

I figure this should cost me around $800 to $1000 pre sound deadening depending on the cost of plexiglass.

 

[pandamonk]

Check out the portable vocal booth thread.

Also, the wall you are planning to build is just a simple stud wall, which doesn't do a huge amount for isolation(STC of 38 with insulation). If you decouple the studs, you get 10dB more isolation(STC of 48 with insulation), which is audibly 1/2 the volume, or 1/4 the power. And if you are doing it to provide isolation for a neighbour, the inner stud provides a third or fourth leaf, so provides no more extra isolation than if you built the booth 1 leaf(I believe).

Also, i'd suggest glass over plexiglass, as it probably has more mass. And for absorption, i'd suggest 2" rigid fiberglass panels placed 2" from the wall(not completely covering the walls), and 4-6" in the corners. Do not build it 8'x8'x8'! Make sure all dimentions are different, ie 10'x8'x7'.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Check out the portable vocal booth thread.

Also, the wall you are planning to build is just a simple stud wall, which doesn't do a huge amount for isolation(STC of 38 with insulation). If you decouple the studs, you get 10dB more isolation(STC of 48 with insulation), which is audibly 1/2 the volume, or 1/4 the power.

When you say decouple the studs, what exactly do you mean? I am certainly no accoustics engineer or framer.

What is STC?

And if you are doing it to provide isolation for a neighbour, the inner stud provides a third or fourth leaf, so provides no more extra isolation than if you built the booth 1 leaf(I believe).

Leaf? Is this referring to layers of drywall?

Are you saying that by building an interior room within a room I would not reduce the volume level in my neighbors house? I find that very hard to believe.

Also, i'd suggest glass over plexiglass, as it probably has more mass. And for absorption, i'd suggest 2" rigid fiberglass panels placed 2" from the wall(not completely covering the walls), and 4-6" in the corners. Do not build it 8'x8'x8'! Make sure all dimentions are different, ie 10'x8'x7'.

[/QUOTE]

Glass is expensive. It might be cheaper to by thicker plexi, but I'll look into it.

Thanks for the fiberglass panel suggestion. Those are available at home improvement stores I presume?

Thank you also for the tip about different size walls and height. I will definitely do that.

 

[pandamonk]

When you say decouple the studs, what exactly do you mean? I am certainly no accoustics engineer or framer.

What is STC?




Leaf? Is this referring to layers of drywall?

Are you saying that by building an interior room within a room I would not reduce the volume level in my neighbors house? I find that very hard to believe.


Glass is expensive. It might be cheaper to by thicker plexi, but I'll look into it.

Thanks for the fiberglass panel suggestion. Those are available at home improvement stores I presume?

Thank you also for the tip about different size walls and height. I will definitely do that.

Decouple(read this), ie have separate studs which do not touch at any part. The inner mass(drywall), shouldn't have a flanking path(somewhere the sound can vibrate), to the outer mass(drywall). STC = Sound Transmission Class.

Yes, leaf refers to layers of drywall. No I'm saying building a two leaf room within your room which is separated from your neighbours by a two leaf wall, will not improve isolation more than if you built a one leaf room, with a one leaf wall separating your neighbours and you. Most of the isolation is done with the gap between walls.

The best isolation(for your money) is down with a two leaf system. When you build a three(or more) leaf system, like so | | |, it has the same effect as this | |. It is much more effective to move the 3rd inner leaf(drywall) to an outer leaf, like so: | ||, if you understand what i mean. A three leaf system is only as good as the two leaf system in it with the biggest gap/mass, if that makes any sense. It is better to add the mass of the middle leaf, to one of the outer leafs, if that makes any sense, haha.

Plexiglass may be cheaper, but it a hell of a lot lighter and more flexible, which means sound will pass a lot easier. If you use plexiglass, i doubt what you do to the walls will matter a great deal, as the window will be the weakest link. In isolation, a room is only as good as its weakest link.

Rigid fiberglass is available from specialist insulation suppliers. It is quite difficult to find, in the UK anyway, but is widely used in studios for acoustics. Do a little search for it in these forums, and read this.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: Also remember that you need to breathe, so you need ventilation which does not allow sound to escape, which is difficult because sound can basically go wherever air goes. I provided a solution in the portable vocal booth thread.

 

[pandamonk]

I just found this after a quick google search, which explains the triple leaf system much better than i could. That site has a huge amount of good info on sound isolation. Read as much as you can from that site to help you understand. If you don't understand something(like with decouping) google it, or look up a dictionary. Also look at it in the context of the sentence and you can sometimes guess. If you're really stuck, ask here, and if we know(and we should with experts like Ethan, Steve, Rod, Rick etc.) we'll explain.

 

[liv_rong]

i have a question, my dad has been a carpenter for many many years, he has been on a few movie theater jobs. he said that they seperate the theaters with many layers of drywall stacked on top of eachother on each wall.

is this something they would do because they are too cheap to do it the right way??

so, say they have a bunch of layers on one wall, then the cavity, then a bunch more on the other side, it is still considered a double leaf system. but dont the actual layers still make a significant difference because there is so much masss on each side of the wall?

bare in mind, i do not know all of the details of these jobs he has been on, i just remember him saying that there are many layers of drywall on the walls, so who knows what is in between the walls, and if they put any other kind of sound isolation between the drywall.

 

[pandamonk]

i have a question, my dad has been a carpenter for many many years, he has been on a few movie theater jobs. he said that they seperate the theaters with many layers of drywall stacked on top of eachother on each wall.

is this something they would do because they are too cheap to do it the right way??

so, say they have a bunch of layers on one wall, then the cavity, then a bunch more on the other side, it is still considered a double leaf system. but dont the actual layers still make a significant difference because there is so much masss on each side of the wall?

bare in mind, i do not know all of the details of these jobs he has been on, i just remember him saying that there are many layers of drywall on the walls, so who knows what is in between the walls, and if they put any other kind of sound isolation between the drywall.

It sounds like a two leaf system, although you generally don't need more than 3 layers of drywall for each leaf in a staggered stud construction, as this offers an STC of 61 with insulation. Although an STC of 63 can be achieved with just two layers of drywall in a two leaf assembly with separate studs and insulation, as shown here. An STC of 60+ is generally sufficient in most applications.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

OK I have a better idea now

I read that article you posted.

Basically.

If I really want to isolate the sound as much as possible I have to.

Decouple the studs somehow. How is this accomplished on a budget?

Make sure to use insulation of some sort.

One leaf construction is sufficient, meaning drywall one at least one side and really any sort of covering on the outside wall since I'm already dealing with a cement wall between apartments which provides the second leaf. Not to mention I will be finished the basement itself with paneling on top of the cement.

Fiberglass paneling separated from the wall.

And try to use a thick glass instead of plexi. I probably can find a bargain on glass if I try hard enough. Hell even the dump has old windows I can probably use.

Use asymmetrical design on the layout to reduce reverberation inside the room.

The biggest issue in these apartments is noise travel through the ceiling. So I will make sure to insulate that as well. That should help some.

Any other suggestions?

 

[Lumpy]

Glass is expensive...

Glass is cheaper than plexiglass.

For your loud guitar amp, stick it in a box and mic
it inside that box. Instead of building an ideal
acoustic room for the amp, build an ideal acoustic
box. I've seen sound gods leave the amp in the
road case and mic it from in there. I've seen them
put the amp in a plastic trashcan, mic in with it,
then cover the trash can with absorptive blankets.

Lumpy

You Played on Lawrence Welk?
Yes but no blue notes. Just blue hairs.

www.LumpyGuitar.net

 

[pandamonk]

I read that article you posted.

Basically.

If I really want to isolate the sound as much as possible I have to.

Decouple the studs somehow. How is this accomplished on a budget?

Make sure to use insulation of some sort.

One leaf construction is sufficient, meaning drywall one at least one side and really any sort of covering on the outside wall since I'm already dealing with a cement wall between apartments which provides the second leaf. Not to mention I will be finished the basement itself with paneling on top of the cement.

Check out the protable vocal booth thread and scale it up to the size you need. Also, it may help(3dB) to double the MDF/drywall, although 3dB isn't a huge amount, especially with the amount of extra materials you will need for a 10'x8' booth.

Asymmetry is good, but will probably make it more expensive. As long as you have sufficient absorption, a rectangular room should be fine.

 

[pandamonk]

Glass is cheaper than plexiglass.

For your loud guitar amp, stick it in a box and mic
it inside that box. Instead of building an ideal
acoustic room for the amp, build an ideal acoustic
box. I've seen sound gods leave the amp in the
road case and mic it from in there. I've seen them
put the amp in a plastic trashcan, mic in with it,
then cover the trash can with absorptive blankets.

Lumpy

You Played on Lawrence Welk?
Yes but no blue notes. Just blue hairs.

www.LumpyGuitar.net

He'll be using it for drums and vocals also, so a large booth is necessary.

I'd recommend getting the drums out of there when recording guitar/vocals though. Even with a blanket over and snares off, they will still resonate.

Also, if you need isolation in the room you are mixing, a one leaf system won't provide a great deal, but if it is only for the neighbours, then a 1 leaf system(with the 2nd leaf being the concrete wall) should be best. Make sure to have the booth as far from the neighbours wall as possible.

 

[bpape]

I'd save some money and get good performance by using DriCore as the floor instead of a full floor system. It'll also gain you some height. Use PAC Intl DC-04 clips to tie the walls to the joists above and get good isolation. If the joist layout will allow, just sit another set of joists on top of your new walls for FULL isolation. Double drywall, caulking everything, and a solid core door complete the project.

Bryan

 

[pandamonk]

I'd save some money and get good performance by using DriCore as the floor instead of a full floor system. It'll also gain you some height. Use PAC Intl DC-04 clips to tie the walls to the joists above and get good isolation. If the joist layout will allow, just sit another set of joists on top of your new walls for FULL isolation. Double drywall, caulking everything, and a solid core door complete the project.

Bryan

That is probably a good idea, but my suggestion is simply MDF on rubber sheet, or carpet, so it's not really a full floor system. Also, why would you need to decouple the walls from the floating floor?

 

[gullfo]

a single or light layer over carpet can result in the floor acting as a low frequency membrane absorber (carpet on undercarpet foam can become a very effective absorber) and consequently kill off some of the bass drum... using enough mass on it (several layers of MDF) to compress it (might be better of using rigid fiberglass) will decouple it from the floor and have a low enough resonant frequency to not reduce important frequencies and be stable... decoupling the walls from the floor helps avoid transferring structure borne sound from the floating floor into the wall. just a layer of 3/8 neoprene or sylomer can help.

 

[pandamonk]

a single or light layer over carpet can result in the floor acting as a low frequency membrane absorber (carpet on undercarpet foam can become a very effective absorber) and consequently kill off some of the bass drum... using enough mass on it (several layers of MDF) to compress it (might be better of using rigid fiberglass) will decouple it from the floor and have a low enough resonant frequency to not reduce important frequencies and be stable... decoupling the walls from the floor helps avoid transferring structure borne sound from the floating floor into the wall. just a layer of 3/8 neoprene or sylomer can help.

But if the floating floor and wall are all of the same "room", then it does not matter that sound is transferred, imo. If the sound gets in through the floor, it doesn't matter that it's transferred to the walls, because it's in anyway, although the walls probably resonate more than the floor. I suggest acoustic treatment(absorption) in the room anyway, so the floor acting as a low freq membrane absorber is probably a good thing.

 

[Lumpy]

He'll be using it for drums and vocals also, so a large booth is necessary. ...

So instead of trying to build a soundproof room that will handle drums (difficult) amplified guitar (difficult and a completely different animal than drums) and vox (not a problem at all) just build it to the drums. Put the guitar amp in the box and mic it. Engineers do that even at seriously sound proof studios to isolate the guitar.


Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.LumpyMusic.com

 

[pandamonk]

So instead of trying to build a soundproof room that will handle drums (difficult) amplified guitar (difficult and a completely different animal than drums) and vox (not a problem at all) just build it to the drums. Put the guitar amp in the box and mic it. Engineers do that even at seriously sound proof studios to isolate the guitar.


Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
www.LumpyMusic.com

Yeh, well that's what I'm suggesting. Build a booth for drums, and it can be used for amps and vocals if the drums are removed. The basics of sound isolation doesn't change much for drums and amps. If you get good isolation for drums, it'll be good for guitar. Why build two isolation booths, when you can get by with one?

Big studios probably do it to isolate the amp from other instruments, if recording all together, but if the amp is recorded on its own, then they have no need to. Also, much better acoustics can be acheived in a large room than a small box.

 

[gullfo]

the floor and walls all have absorption qualities, the idea is to make sure they are the ones you want... the walls could suck the life out of the drums as well as a poorly made floor, which is why most good sounding drum booths are substantially solid and reflective with tall ceilings containing the absorption treatments.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Well I certainly won't have tall ceilings. But this small room will be better than recording in an open basement even if it is a finished basement.

I figure any recording I can do in this one booth/room will really help me reduce my angry neighbor level. So that's why I am planning on lugging guitar amps in and out. I get decent vocals out in the open believe it or not, so if the drums resonate too much in the booth I can still record vocals outside of it. Vocals may be slightly annoying to a neighbor, but I bet they can barely even hear anything, and it's nothing compared to a drum set or a crunchy guitar riff played 50 times over and over again.

I'm going to insulate my basement ceiling, and the walls attached to me neighbors, then I'm going to build this interior room/booth pretty much the way I laid out. I'll add some carpet and carpet pad to the booth floor and do my best to learn about building a wall using decoupling. The noise level should be more like a loud TV next door instead of a rock concert. I'll be moving in 3 weeks, first I need to finish the basement, then I'm going to build the booth. So the good news is I'll get a chance to insulate and carpet the floor even before this booth is built. That should give me some extra isolation.

Also this whole setup should shield me a little bit from my two daughter trouncing around above me. That's the worst. I can't record anything unless they are either asleep or not around. But with an insulated floor, and a free standing interior room with an extra ceiling I should be able to record pretty much whenever I want.

It won't be completely isolated I'm sure, but it should be 100 times better than it is now.

 

[pandamonk]

the floor and walls all have absorption qualities, the idea is to make sure they are the ones you want... the walls could suck the life out of the drums as well as a poorly made floor, which is why most good sounding drum booths are substantially solid and reflective with tall ceilings containing the absorption treatments.

Yeah, but aren't they usually quite big, 'cause small room reflections ain't too nice. Also, without parallel walls, like your suggestion in the other thread, then it'd sound better. But surely that makes the booth much harder and more expensive to build...