Hopefully an end to this summing nonsense?

  • Thread starter Thread starter pipelineaudio
  • Start date Start date
pipelineaudio

pipelineaudio

Well-known member
Being such a tired and ridiculous topic that seems to come up every 11 minutes or so, I wanted to be able to point to a link where not only would it be proven that this whole summing issue is nonsense, but where you could prove it to YOURSELF!

This actually wasn't as easy as I had imagined it would be, and there are still a few little kinks to work out.

Here are the test files to download, along with the results:

http://pipelineaudio.net/samples/summing test.zip

Here is how it works:

For the "Straight Test"

1. Place all three files from the "test files" folder in your project
2. Set project for 44khz
3. Turn dither off if possible
4. Render to 24 bit 44khz wave file





For the "faders down 6 master up 6 Test"

1. Place all three files from the "test files" folder in your project
2. Set project for 44khz
3. Turn all three channel faders down to -6dB
4. Set master to +6dB
5. Turn dither off if possible
6. Render to 24 bit 44khz wave file



Now, assuming that an app isn't BROKEN, every single one of these files should be identical

err wait, some of the tinfoil hat crowd claims some apps have magic pixie dust summing math that makes the sound have more SOAR, so I included the outputs just in case there were sonic differences, and they could claim they abx tested the files and found one "better" than another - yes and Im waiting for a certain Nigerian Ambassador to transfer funds into my bank account, since you know, I sent him the transfer fee.....


So, so far as you shall see, in the unity gain test we have:

REAPER, Podium, Vegas, Pro Tools, Cubase, Nuendo, SAW, Samplitude, SONAR and Logic 8

You already know the answer: Samplitude and SAW have magical supermixer properties that will make hit producing euphonanity over all these other apps right?

Wrong, every one of these is a DEAD, MINUS INFINITY, null

Given the same input, all these apps produce the same output...they sound EXACTLY the same. Unless you can posit a theory of how identical files could sound different, I think its time to start worrying about mic positioning, control room accoustics, or hey, the talent of the "talent", you know, things that might actually matter

But wait, there's more....just in case some of these apps might be doing things a little differently, we did a test of turning down the channel fader by 6dB, turning UP the master fader by 6dB and rendering. I mean, If there IS any magic pixie dust sprinkled in the code somewhere, its gotta show in the level changes, where else could it be?

Unless the app is somehow screwed up, it should still null with the unity gain files right?

well....here's where things got a little interesting

We KNOW 100% that pan laws arent an issue here, or the unity gain renders would not have nulled

so, Vegas, SONAR, REAPER, and Pro Tools nulled with the unity gain files exactly as they should.

SAW did not - what seems to be a slight error in SAW's math resulted in a render which was 0.00451dB too quiet. When this gain was added back in, the file nulled as expected - note to the Shakti Stone arrangers out there, it still didnt make a different sounding file, just a quieter one that sounded exactly the same as the others once the level error was corrected

Logic 8 also, did not render correctly, it resulted in a file which was 0.06dB too loud. Again, turning down the file to the correct level resulted in a file which nulled to -infinity with the rest of the files.

Cubase/Nuendo - here is the weirdest one. These files did not null with the others. The level was correct, we know the pan law was correct, I just dont have an explanation for why these didn't render correctly.

But before you send that check to Sylvia Browne, these nulled to -99dB, HARDLY anything to write home about






Now, it is QUITE possible there was some pilot error involved so I heartily invite you to download the tests yourself, and have at it.

For all practical purposes, I consider this summing nonsense dead and buried.

Thank you VERY much to everyone who participated in making this test possible
 
Wavelab 5 is a dead null with the Reaper file in your test. I only did the straight sum; I've tested the gain change before (much more strict; I think I used 5 +12dB changes followed by a -60dB on the master), and that nulled internally, so an external test is moot if the straight sum nulls.
 
Oh, and I've also tested the ITB sum against an OTB sum, while developing my mix cable product. The OTB sum was four channels of very high frequency sine waves summing together across a resistive passive summing network, with no makeup gain (-12dB loss), going out of an RME ADI-8 DS straight back into the same unit.

The OTB mix had intermodulation distortion at -120dBFS and the slightest touch of 60Hz hum (and attendant harmonics). The ITB mix had neither ;)
 
good post, pipeline. I'll play with this in the studio tomorrow. Out of curiosity...did you do this with PT LE or PT HD/TDM?
 
I think that was LE...the PT session files should be in the zip, so if you want to do HD, go for it.

I can update the download with the HD files too.
 
pipelineaudio said:
Being such a tired and ridiculous topic that seems to come up every 11 minutes or so, I wanted to be able to point to a link where not only would it be proven that this whole summing issue is nonsense, but where you could prove it to YOURSELF!

This actually wasn't as easy as I had imagined it would be, and there are still a few little kinks to work out.

Here are the test files to download, along with the results:

http://pipelineaudio.net/samples/summing test.zip

Here is how it works:

For the "Straight Test"

1. Place all three files from the "test files" folder in your project
2. Set project for 44khz
3. Turn dither off if possible
4. Render to 24 bit 44khz wave file





For the "faders down 6 master up 6 Test"

1. Place all three files from the "test files" folder in your project
2. Set project for 44khz
3. Turn all three channel faders down to -6dB
4. Set master to +6dB
5. Turn dither off if possible
6. Render to 24 bit 44khz wave file



Now, assuming that an app isn't BROKEN, every single one of these files should be identical

err wait, some of the tinfoil hat crowd claims some apps have magic pixie dust summing math that makes the sound have more SOAR, so I included the outputs just in case there were sonic differences, and they could claim they abx tested the files and found one "better" than another - yes and Im waiting for a certain Nigerian Ambassador to transfer funds into my bank account, since you know, I sent him the transfer fee.....


So, so far as you shall see, in the unity gain test we have:

REAPER, Podium, Vegas, Pro Tools, Cubase, Nuendo, SAW, Samplitude, SONAR and Logic 8

You already know the answer: Samplitude and SAW have magical supermixer properties that will make hit producing euphonanity over all these other apps right?

Wrong, every one of these is a DEAD, MINUS INFINITY, null

Given the same input, all these apps produce the same output...they sound EXACTLY the same. Unless you can posit a theory of how identical files could sound different, I think its time to start worrying about mic positioning, control room accoustics, or hey, the talent of the "talent", you know, things that might actually matter

But wait, there's more....just in case some of these apps might be doing things a little differently, we did a test of turning down the channel fader by 6dB, turning UP the master fader by 6dB and rendering. I mean, If there IS any magic pixie dust sprinkled in the code somewhere, its gotta show in the level changes, where else could it be?

Unless the app is somehow screwed up, it should still null with the unity gain files right?

well....here's where things got a little interesting

We KNOW 100% that pan laws arent an issue here, or the unity gain renders would not have nulled

so, Vegas, SONAR, REAPER, and Pro Tools nulled with the unity gain files exactly as they should.

SAW did not - what seems to be a slight error in SAW's math resulted in a render which was 0.00451dB too quiet. When this gain was added back in, the file nulled as expected - note to the Shakti Stone arrangers out there, it still didnt make a different sounding file, just a quieter one that sounded exactly the same as the others once the level error was corrected

Logic 8 also, did not render correctly, it resulted in a file which was 0.06dB too loud. Again, turning down the file to the correct level resulted in a file which nulled to -infinity with the rest of the files.

Cubase/Nuendo - here is the weirdest one. These files did not null with the others. The level was correct, we know the pan law was correct, I just dont have an explanation for why these didn't render correctly.

But before you send that check to Sylvia Browne, these nulled to -99dB, HARDLY anything to write home about






Now, it is QUITE possible there was some pilot error involved so I heartily invite you to download the tests yourself, and have at it.

For all practical purposes, I consider this summing nonsense dead and buried.

Thank you VERY much to everyone who participated in making this test possible
Click to expand...

Try this test now. Get some people in your studio control room and sit them down in front of the speakers. Get a mix up and put a compressor, EQ or anything else in front of them with cables going nowhere. Ask them to tell you where the best setting is on some knob. You will be surprised at the outcome. People hear what the THINK they will hear even though it ain't there.
 
I think the summing bus is the wrong place to look for the pixie dust.
 
Fredo from Steinberg said:
IBut as long as the problem hasn't been confirmed, then the problem doesn't exist.
Click to expand...
I think he needs to ask the cat. ;)

G.
 
Last edited:
MCI2424 said:
Try this test now. Get some people in your studio control room and sit them down in front of the speakers. Get a mix up and put a compressor, EQ or anything else in front of them with cables going nowhere. Ask them to tell you where the best setting is on some knob. You will be surprised at the outcome. People hear what the THINK they will hear even though it ain't there.
Click to expand...


boy aint that the trueth.... about 10 yrs ago i got involved with some guys developing an independent rap lable... i ha d a day gig at the time and when i came in one afternoon my "partner" was giddy about a compressor tweek he had worked on (he said) all day... was using the internal fx on a yamama 02r... it about killed him when i suggested he (do this) and i released the by-pass....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top