which mixing desk for $6000

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yoyo said:
OK, i knew everything you told me there...... i know what a digital signal is, and what a analog signal is. how they work yada yada.

i know about interfaces and converters and wat they do. as well as firewire and usb

i'm just frustrated that i can't get a cheaper analog mixing console that connects straight to the pc. I pretty much want a more basic version of the big consoles. something that has 32 or 48 channels, that connects to the pc, and each channel is recognized SEPARATELY. that's mainly what i want. i have converters and stuff already.... i'm just sick of not being able to record 16 tracks at once and not having to spend $$$$$$ on a really expensive piece of gear.

thanks for clearing this up, i've been searching around for a while, and i just wanted to clear this up.
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Ok, here's the deal: you're either lying or stupid. Listen to me very carefully. An A N A L O G board, can NOT COMMUNICATE DIRECTLY with a COMPUTER. If you want each track on your board to be recognized separately, you need to convert the channel to digital. The reason you don't see many (or any at all) mixing boards with digital interfaces built in is because the process of converting a high-quality analog signal, to a high-quality digital signal, isn't easy, or cheap. Most people who want or need to record 16+ channels of audio at once, are willing to spend the money on a kick-ass analog board (supposing they want one), 16+ channels of kick-ass converters, a bunch of kick-ass cables, and plug it into a kick-ass computer.

Basically, what you're saying is "I wanna have a kick-ass recording studio for little to no money". Fucking cry about it: I want a Ferarri for $60 too but you simply can't have it. Get a fucking job, save up, and buy the stuff if you want it that bad. Don't come into a forum and cry about not being able to afford this stuff, ESPECIALLY when many of the people here learned recording at a time when you needed thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to have anywhere near the capabilities that $1000 could get you today.
 
toft & computer

they are saposed to be coming out with an expansion card for the toft audio boards at some time that will hook to your comp, via fire wire i guess.


the best of both worlds.
 
steve.h said:
Ok, here's the deal: you're either lying or stupid. Listen to me very carefully. An A N A L O G board, can NOT COMMUNICATE DIRECTLY with a COMPUTER.
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oh wow.... what about the boards that have firewire built into them???

what i'm also saying IS: why can't they make an analog board that has a digital converter built in???? ever thought about that? that way the signal is all analog until the last process where it is turned into a digital signal and sent to the pc or w.e

and if you don't wana help, then don't. if u do, don't freaking scream like a freaking women. control your temper, or shutup
 
oh wow.... what about the boards that have firewire built into them???

what i'm also saying IS: why can't they make an analog board that has a digital converter built in????
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dude...the analog board w/ firewire are simply an analog console with an A/D converter built-in
 
The reason he is upset is that you are saying that you understand the process but then you turn around and make a statement that proves that you do not understand it. They do make consoles that have converters in them also. What you are asking for is definately not a digital console. The FIRST thing most all digital consoles do is convert the signal to digital and then process it (sometimes after the preamp). There are some smaller consoles with Firewire built into them. Keep in mind that often times the functionality of these is limited and the quality low. You also often pay extra for them. Either extra for the fact that it was built in already or extra because you have to buy an add on card. Even if the console were to have all the converters built in, it would still have to have either Firewire, USB, or some type of way to interface with the computer. In more affordable options, firewire and/or USB is used. In more advanced options specific PCI or similar cards are used to interface with the computer. Most manufacturers however have decided to do what they do and do it right. This means design a good console. Let a good converter manufacturer or soundcard manufacturer design that part of the interface. This generally gives a higher quality product as well as offering you the user the flexibility to choose the solution that fits the best.

So, there are consoles with converters built in. There are cheapies like the Mackie's etc... and then there are the MUCH more expensive SSL's, Euphonix, Neve etc... Keep in mind that the console you are asking for actually does not lower cost, raise effectiveness, ease of use etc... In fact, if you did have a large console that did all of those things it would probably cost you more, be harder to use, decrease flexibility etc... In ANY scenario I have mentioned here with an analog console, the signal is all analog as far as it can go. Your scenario technically keeps it analog less than mine.

Out of curiosity, what 20k + yamaha console is it that you used that made you think that a Tascam digital was the way to go? I can only think of a couple of yamaha consoles that might make you think that and they are nowhere near $20k. Basically the M and MG series are pretty shoddy, but the PM's are pretty solid and clean up on the Tascam.

Steve maybe should not have been so upset about all this, but he is right. He explained it properly. You turned around and said you understood it all but then continued with the same misinformed statements.
 
yoyo said:
ok, thanks for telling. according to steveh. there's no such thing.
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Steve would still be right. An ANALOG board uses analog, a digital uses digital and often analog also. A hybrid would be an analog front end with a digital back end. The processing is all done analog, and then converted.
 
yoyo said:
ok, thanks for telling. according to steveh. there's no such thing.
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"The reason you don't see many (or any at all) mixing boards with digital interfaces built in"...

The reason the "(or any at all)" was in there is because I revised the sentence, and neglected to remove the statement in parentheses. I know perfectly well that there are analog boards with interfaces built in, my statement was originally referring to larger 32+ channel boards, of which i don't believe there are any with built-in interfaces. My point wasn't that they didn't exist, my point was that they blow and aren't commonly used. Read through my posting history and you'll find I don't commonly post disinformation: this was simply an editing mistake.

I've tried to help you, and have explained how these things work: you simply lack the ability to understand what I'm saying. I'll summarize my point in terms I have no doubt you'll understand:

"yeah man it sux that there aren't any cheap boards out there with separate channels for your computer without spending like $398729385723!!!!! i wish they did too man so I could have my own studio. i need like 64 channels too, cause I already got the converters but this dude yoyo this message board said its possible....... i just wanna plug an analog board into my computer, is that so hard??????"

Better? Jesus christ people with your level of intellect piss me off.
 
bought a power mac with HD2 and digi 192I/O with its expansion card
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ok, my question for you:

did you get the A/D(input) card, or the D/A(output) card for the expansion slot? i'm going to assume you got the A/D card, which gives you the following:

16 analog inputs, 8 analog outputs, plus the digital I/O

with this setup, there is literally no need for a 24-channel mixer, because you're only going to be able to run 16 channels to your hard drive(plus a potential 8 more thru the digital ins), and 8 back to the mixer. if you have the D/A card in the expansion, you can do 8 ins to the HD, and 16 outs back to the console...but unless you're going to use a lot of outboard gear and use up aux sends/returns, you still won't need a 24-channel mixer.

now that i think of it, your best bet would probably be to have the D/A card in the expansion slot...this way, you can run 8 pres into the analog inputs, 8 more into the digital inputs, and then 16 back out to an analog mixer. with a budget of $6,000 you could easily get 16 pretty nice preamps, along with a 16-channel console to do your mixing on.
 
Ironklad Audio said:
ok, my question for you:

did you get the A/D(input) card, or the D/A(output) card for the expansion slot? i'm going to assume you got the A/D card, which gives you the following:

16 analog inputs, 8 analog outputs, plus the digital I/O

with this setup, there is literally no need for a 24-channel mixer, because you're only going to be able to run 16 channels to your hard drive(plus a potential 8 more thru the digital ins), and 8 back to the mixer. if you have the D/A card in the expansion, you can do 8 ins to the HD, and 16 outs back to the console...but unless you're going to use a lot of outboard gear and use up aux sends/returns, you still won't need a 24-channel mixer.

now that i think of it, your best bet would probably be to have the D/A card in the expansion slot...this way, you can run 8 pres into the analog inputs, 8 more into the digital inputs, and then 16 back out to an analog mixer. with a budget of $6,000 you could easily get 16 pretty nice preamps, along with a 16-channel console to do your mixing on.
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yes ironklad, got the A/D card so as you said 16ins 8outs, the reason i want to go for a 24ch mixing desk is cause i m planning to get another I/O in the future (when i can afford it) and upgrade to 24in 16out
 
ahh, gotcha

i guess it's all good then if you're planing on filling up the other channels...it would be a shame to see someone drop all those dimes only to have a bunch of empty/unused channel strips sitting in front of them

that being said, i'm not too sure what the best route would be for a console...only analog consoles i've used much are a ghost and mackie onyx, and 6k should be able to score you something better than either of those

now that i think of it, mackie does offer the onyx in a 24-channel format...the preamps are pretty good, the EQ decent, but i'd estimate that the toft will still probably smoke it in terms of overall sonic quality - the onyx, however, is less than 4k, which would still leave some cash left over for outboard pres, mics, or whatever else.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Onyx2480/
 
xstatic said:
The reason he is upset is that you are saying that you understand the process but then you turn around and make a statement that proves that you do not understand it. They do make consoles that have converters in them also. What you are asking for is definately not a digital console. The FIRST thing most all digital consoles do is convert the signal to digital and then process it (sometimes after the preamp). There are some smaller consoles with Firewire built into them. Keep in mind that often times the functionality of these is limited and the quality low. You also often pay extra for them. Either extra for the fact that it was built in already or extra because you have to buy an add on card. Even if the console were to have all the converters built in, it would still have to have either Firewire, USB, or some type of way to interface with the computer. In more affordable options, firewire and/or USB is used. In more advanced options specific PCI or similar cards are used to interface with the computer. Most manufacturers however have decided to do what they do and do it right. This means design a good console. Let a good converter manufacturer or soundcard manufacturer design that part of the interface. This generally gives a higher quality product as well as offering you the user the flexibility to choose the solution that fits the best.

So, there are consoles with converters built in. There are cheapies like the Mackie's etc... and then there are the MUCH more expensive SSL's, Euphonix, Neve etc... Keep in mind that the console you are asking for actually does not lower cost, raise effectiveness, ease of use etc... In fact, if you did have a large console that did all of those things it would probably cost you more, be harder to use, decrease flexibility etc... In ANY scenario I have mentioned here with an analog console, the signal is all analog as far as it can go. Your scenario technically keeps it analog less than mine.

Out of curiosity, what 20k + yamaha console is it that you used that made you think that a Tascam digital was the way to go? I can only think of a couple of yamaha consoles that might make you think that and they are nowhere near $20k. Basically the M and MG series are pretty shoddy, but the PM's are pretty solid and clean up on the Tascam.

Steve maybe should not have been so upset about all this, but he is right. He explained it properly. You turned around and said you understood it all but then continued with the same misinformed statements.
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ok guys, i didn't want to mention this here, but i guess i have to. i'm fourteen, i'm young, i have limited experience.... so please, give me a break. i've only been doing sound for a year and a half.... i'm still figuring everything out.

thanks xStatic, that was nice bit of info.

sorry guys for being a noob:(, im still getting into all this stuff and understanding it all....
 
you can buy 2 firepods and hook them together and get 16 tracks
 
Yoyo, take this as a life lesson then. One of the points I was trying to make is that without the experience and knowledge to back it up, maybe you should try not to make bold statements and try to infer knowledge you don't have. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing something, but there certainly is with trying to pretend you do and then arguing it when you are called on it. If you want to be succesful in this industry one good skill is learning how to make people confident in your ability to do things and your desire to do them. When you start pretending then it leads me to believe that I should not be confident in you and that you do not care enough to learn. If the people you are dealing with feel this way about you then your future in this industry is done. On the other hand, if you always show that you are trying hard and do your best to learn, people will forgive your shortcomings and attempt to help you on your way.
 
xstatic said:
Yoyo, take this as a life lesson then. One of the points I was trying to make is that without the experience and knowledge to back it up, maybe you should try not to make bold statements and try to infer knowledge you don't have. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing something, but there certainly is with trying to pretend you do and then arguing it when you are called on it. If you want to be succesful in this industry one good skill is learning how to make people confident in your ability to do things and your desire to do them. When you start pretending then it leads me to believe that I should not be confident in you and that you do not care enough to learn. If the people you are dealing with feel this way about you then your future in this industry is done. On the other hand, if you always show that you are trying hard and do your best to learn, people will forgive your shortcomings and attempt to help you on your way.
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ok, yeah, you're right... i just hate always being the one asking the questions and never helping... i've been told that this isn't "right" on other forums, even though this is the point of the forum.... sorry guys :(

and i do work by but off learning about this stuff. i spend a LOT more time than my parents are happy researching the stuff, and i work a good number of hours on sunday in the tech department at my church, so i'm learning there as well. i've got a lot to learn still, that's why i joined. i'll try not to give advice which doesn't exist:( sorry guys. this IS an apology.

now back to the subject.

ps - at least i didn't tell the guy to go and buy a behringer eurdesk and be done with it. lol
 
Ironklad Audio said:
dude...the analog board w/ firewire are simply an analog console with an A/D converter built-in
Click to expand...

Right, this is correct. Mackie makes some boards like this, but not in the 6k range of the type you are looking for.

Also, with built in AD converters, you have to be very aware of where the converters are placed in the audio signal path. The Mackies, from what I understand, are basically direct outs on each channel. So if you want post fx or post fader, you'd be out of luck.

With an external AD converter you'd have the option of placing the converters wherever you want them. i.e. on the direct outs, or the busses, fx send, whatever.
 
yea...mackie had to be bastards, and make the FW send post-gain and line-in, and pre-everything else

of course there's a mod available to make the FW sends post-eq, and either pre or post-fader...but the mod is like $300, not including the shipping to and from the place the performs the mod. :(
 
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