Drum Triggers- Friend or Foe?

[travelin travis]

For the record, I think any keyboard is cheezy.

I understand that the drummer is still playing. You're talking about good drummers with good equipment. I figure that they should be able to sound good live. You made some good points and I can see the benefit in some cases of using triggers. I just think of my own drumming - live and recorded - and I just wouldn't feel right about using them. It just seems so lame.

agreed and repped.

 

[Farview]

if you play extreme metal, friend, on bass drums only. occasionally, a snare can be appropriate, take nick barker or hellhammer from dimmu borgir. for snare blasts at that speed it helps to have a consistent loud volume for the sake of the music and the audience. any tom or cymbal triggering sounds so fake it makes me cringe when i hear it. mixing both sounds isn't too bad an idea if it's done properly.

I've been backstage for a few Dimmu shows. The toms were triggered with both of the last two drummers (as well as the kick and snare). The old drummer (the bald one from Cradle of Filth) didn't even have a real snare. He was using a V-drum trigger. Since those are only 10 inches, he could bunch the rest of the drums closer together so he didn't have to move as far between drums.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

For the folks that have issues with samples...there are some far more 'non-pure' techniques in use out there that will really set you off.

Beat Detective or other similar programs can be used to snap drums to a grid. Bye bye groove. It's ubiquitous too. Kind of like auto-tune for drummers.

Some bands map their kick drums and then play the rest of the drums to the 'fake' recorded kick track.

I've read Joe Baressi describing how he recorded Queens of the Stone Age by recording the drums separate from the cymbals. The drummer would do things like put a silent rubber block in place of the hi hat so he could pretend like he was playing it. The idea was to be able to put a mic a foot from the toms and not have to worry about cymbal bleed. He makes great sounding records, but if I was the drummer I don't think I would have gone along with that one.

 

[Farview]

For the folks that have issues with samples...there are some far more 'non-pure' techniques in use out there that will really set you off.

Beat Detective or other similar programs can be used to snap drums to a grid. Bye bye groove. It's ubiquitous too. Kind of like auto-tune for drummers.

Some bands map their kick drums and then play the rest of the drums to the 'fake' recorded kick track.

I've read Joe Baressi describing how he recorded Queens of the Stone Age by recording the drums separate from the cymbals. The drummer would do things like put a silent rubber block in place of the hi hat so he could pretend like he was playing it. The idea was to be able to put a mic a foot from the toms and not have to worry about cymbal bleed. He makes great sounding records, but if I was the drummer I don't think I would have gone along with that one.

+1
I've worked on some major label things (in the 80's) where each drum was recorded seperately. That gave you complete isolation and full control over the drum sound, plus you could use 6 mics on each drum if you wanted. The hi-hat and ride were done sparately (even from each other) and the rest of the cymbals all at once. It was a real pain to make it sound like one performance and the drummer had to be spot-on all the time, or you would start punching in.

 

[HangDawg]

Well, Drumagog comes with almost 4 gig of samples (a good portion of which I made), and there are sample libraries that you can buy for Drumagog. You can also sample your own kit and use those for samples. You can also borrow your buddy's really nice snare and sample that.

Another cool thing about sampling is that you can sample the drum under ideal conditions. Brand new head, pefectly in tune, multiple mics on one drum with no bleed, use an LDC (which normally you couldn't because it would be in the way of a drummer behind the kit, etc...

That's the awesome thing about sampling the kit you are going to record. No bleed, no placement issues and the samples will match what you are getting in the overheads.

I love it when people say, "How'd they get that awesome sound" and then when you tell them they say it's gay.

Hell, half the time it's not even the drummer from the band doing the tracks on a album but a studio musician.

 

[shakertodd]

Triggers = Sonic Options

1. Black/White thinking only serves to place limitations.

Regardless of wheter triggering "is for you" or not, they provide sonic options for the player, the song, the audience, etc. Triggers are neither good or bad... they just are!

2. Mircophones ARE Triggers

Microphones amplify sound by collecting acoutical information and directing that information to it's trigger mechanism (voice coil, piezo, etc) and processing/converting/changing the acoustic waves into a signal that can be electronically reproduced and/or manipulated.

A true purist would refuse to have his drums miked and insist that the guitars turn down or make them play acoustic guitars. The reason drums are such a challenge to mic and millions of opinions on the "best" way exist are because drums in general do not lend them selves sonically to amplification (produce chaotic sound waves and high spl to begin).

So...

Do you use microphones?
If yes... then you trigger

Do you have a preference of certain mics over others for their sonic qualities?
If yes... then you are triggering to manipulate/alter the natural sound of your instrument.

So one trigger (mic) helps the drums cut through the other amplification, adds presence to the sound, helps your kick drum thump, etc.

And another kind helps your drums sound like a thunder clap, whistle, full horn section, etc.

Does your sound serve your music?
Thats what matters most to me.

Todd

 

[Greg_L]

1. Black/White thinking only serves to place limitations.

Regardless of wheter triggering "is for you" or not, they provide sonic options for the player, the song, the audience, etc. Triggers are neither good or bad... they just are!

2. Mircophones ARE Triggers

Microphones amplify sound by collecting acoutical information and directing that information to it's trigger mechanism (voice coil, piezo, etc) and processing/converting/changing the acoustic waves into a signal that can be electronically reproduced and/or manipulated.

A true purist would refuse to have his drums miked and insist that the guitars turn down or make them play acoustic guitars. The reason drums are such a challenge to mic and millions of opinions on the "best" way exist are because drums in general do not lend them selves sonically to amplification (produce chaotic sound waves and high spl to begin).

So...

Do you use microphones?
If yes... then you trigger

Do you have a preference of certain mics over others for their sonic qualities?
If yes... then you are triggering to manipulate/alter the natural sound of your instrument.

So one trigger (mic) helps the drums cut through the other amplification, adds presence to the sound, helps your kick drum thump, etc.

And another kind helps your drums sound like a thunder clap, whistle, full horn section, etc.

Does your sound serve your music?
Thats what matters most to me.

Todd

Great thanks for sharing.

 

[Greg_L]

For a home-recordist, what's the point in even having drums if you're gonna trigger? Why not just trigger up some tupperware containers or some nice throw pillows and go to town? Noones gonna see, right? It's all about the sound, right? Not right.

 

[Farview]

For a home-recordist, what's the point in even having drums if you're gonna trigger? Why not just trigger up some tupperware containers or some nice throw pillows and go to town? Noones gonna see, right? It's all about the sound, right? Not right.

You could trigger up some tupperware, but it won't feel right to the drummer. The drummer will not give his best performance and the music will suffer. Anyway, you would hear the plastic in the overheads.

And yes, it is all about the finished product.
If it sounds good, no one will care how you did it. (except other recordists, but that would be a really small audience to try to impress)

 

[Tim Brown]

Just as an example:

Kiss has used triggers live since the early 80's. Mainly to get that punchy sound.

On the reunion tour, they used triggers because Peter Criss's arthritis was so bad that he couldn't hit the drums hard enough to make them sound like anything. (much less hit them hard enough so that the monitors wouldn't feed back)

And the drums sounded killer live, but Pete's timing wasn't that good. LOL


Tim

 

[Tim Brown]

that sound pretty gay, and I'm really disapointed they did that... that makes me a very sad panda

Why?

Tons of bands use triggering.
I first got into electronic drums back when you really only had 1 or 2 options for them - Simmons was the big name back then, and everybody using them started developing "Tennis Elbow" because you were literally hitting on a piece of plywood with rubber glued to it.

Then, when companies began developing triggers to mount on the drumheads - what a Godsend that was!
These days, triggering units and soundsources don't have to sound cheesy or bad at all - because they have virtually unlimited potential.


Tim

 

[Tim Brown]

I've found that most of the people who think that triggering drums is 'cheating' either: a.) don't understand the process b.) are confusing triggers with a drum machine c.) don't realize that most of the drums they have heard in the last 20 years have samples in them d.) are guitar players that don't understand the process, are confusing triggers with drum machines and don't realize that the 'killer drums sounds' off their favorite CD are riddled with samples.

AMEN!

I Love Triggering. Live it has saved my ass so many times it isn't funny.

One of my Favorite Drummers - Scot Columbus was one of the first metal Drummers to go totally triggered live - it just saves so much time that it isn't funny, you can deliver the same drumsound every night, no matter what venue you are playing it.

The real issue I think drummers come up with is "it isn't my sound" - but most of them don't realize that "their sound" sounds like a freaking wet cardboard box from the audience.

Half the time when I go see a local band, I am utterly disappointed with the drumsound that is achieved and I always think, "Why don't these guys kick out the cash for a used ddrum unit and a set of triggers?"

No, I don't get my drumsound live, but you know what - I deliver a killer drumsound, and while it isn't exactly the sound I want - I'm also not playing on a $250,000 sound system that would be needed to achieve my drumsound. On top of that, when I've tried using my acoustic kit live - half the time the sound guy doesn't know how to mic the kit. I use big drums, and tune them tight (think Bonham) and these guys have a fit when i have told them " I just need to mic the kicks, the snare, and a condenser directly over the middle oft he kit aimed straight down."

Why? Because the fact of life is a 20" Floor tom sounds like crap when it's mic'd from 4" away - but put the mic 48" away, and it sounds like a tympani.



Tim

 

[Tim Brown]

+1
I've worked on some major label things (in the 80's) where each drum was recorded seperately. That gave you complete isolation and full control over the drum sound, plus you could use 6 mics on each drum if you wanted. The hi-hat and ride were done sparately (even from each other) and the rest of the cymbals all at once. It was a real pain to make it sound like one performance and the drummer had to be spot-on all the time, or you would start punching in.

Can we say Scorpions!?!?!

LOL

Dieter Dirks was well known for that. Talk about CONSTRUCTING a drumtrack.



Tim

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

I will probably get flamed for this, but one problem with triggers is what they have done to players. Getting a good rock sound on an acoustic drum recording requires fairly heavy, steady hitting and a lot of skill. With triggers you can just tap with toothpicks if you want (ok, I'm exaggerating).

I'm reminded of an episode of MTV's Unplugged I saw back in the day with Satriani and Stevie Ray Vaughan. I was a huge Satriani fan at the time and only kinda into SRV, but SRV just smoked him on acoustic. SRV was just a strong dynamic raw player, whereas Satriani was used to playing with tons of gain/compression and relied on it for his style. He really should have stayed home that day.

There's something about knowing that your favorite drummer could sit down at a kit with a pair of sticks and blow your mind. Instead, a lot of guys would require Protools, 2 hours of overdubs, and 10 hours of editing, and triggers to do that.

The other problem with triggers is the dynamics. I don't get out to shows much anymore, but when I've seen them with triggers the drums sound like a square wave assault. A quiet part in a song comes along and you still get a giant kick and snare that drowns everything, not to mention the fake boom that shakes the stadium with every kick hit. Maybe this is just an example of trigger misuse.

OTOH, playing with triggers is probably less joint abuse.

 

[Tim Brown]

I will probably get flamed for this, but one problem with triggers is what they have done to players. Getting a good rock sound on an acoustic drum recording requires fairly heavy, steady hitting and a lot of skill. With triggers you can just tap with toothpicks if you want (ok, I'm exaggerating).

I'm reminded of an episode of MTV's Unplugged I saw back in the day with Satriani and Stevie Ray Vaughan. I was a huge Satriani fan at the time and only kinda into SRV, but SRV just smoked him on acoustic. SRV was just a strong dynamic raw player, whereas Satriani was used to playing with tons of gain/compression and relied on it for his style. He really should have stayed home that day.

There's something about knowing that your favorite drummer could sit down at a kit with a pair of sticks and blow your mind. Instead, a lot of guys would require Protools, 2 hours of overdubs, and 10 hours of editing, and triggers to do that.

The other problem with triggers is the dynamics. I don't get out to shows much anymore, but when I've seen them with triggers the drums sound like a square wave assault. A quiet part in a song comes along and you still get a giant kick and snare that drowns everything, not to mention the fake boom that shakes the stadium with every kick hit. Maybe this is just an example of trigger misuse.

OTOH, playing with triggers is probably less joint abuse.

Triggering is just as dynamic as playing with mic's.
What you are hearing is the player's fault. It is how they have set their input sensitivity and the dynamic range. You can have it every bit as dynamic as if you are playing on a regular acoustic kit, or you can have it set so that every single strike, no matter how light or hard, puts out essentially the exact same output - thereby killing the dynamics.
I was guilty of this in the past. I used to do it on the kicks so that when I went into flying speed - the volume wouldn't drop. Of course, at the time what I was playing required less dynamics.

Half the time, the sound men are squashing the heck out of the drumkit with compressors to begin with.


Think of it like modern recording.

In the 70's and 80's, peoples recordings had a lot of dynamics.
Nowadays, they squash everything and all they worry about is track density, all the while they are thinking "louder sounding recordings" = better....which is just not true.

I love dynamics, both live and on recordings - they help establish depth, and character to recordings.



Tim

 

[smele]

trust me, triggers are verry good frends...

 

[Lectric_Lab]

I played drums when I was I younger, yes I am an ol dawg, and stopped playing in the 80's when triggering drums started to get real popular, but I did have a couple of them at the time, so I sure can't say they are wrong, but I'll say when used in a way to make your kit sound better they can be a good part of the sound, and like now the over-all sound. It would have been so cool back in the 70's to have had these, especially touring, and the equipment trailer was like below freezing and then we had to set up again, and again...and weather reeks havoc on the gear.

As far as my own studio work back then, never used them, they weren't available and we mic'ed the drums. I mean, back in the 70's we used a kick and snare, and maybe an overhead live, and the studio engineers mic'ed the drums to fit what they were hearing to tape the music.

Since triggers have been available I have also seen other drummers abuse them, one case in point, a drummer I played (guitar) with in the late 80's wouldn't even replace his heads, even to the poit that he left broken heads on his kit and just moved the trigger to a solid place and kept right on hitting, this seemed to me a lack of care, interest in his drums....now if I could only figure out way to not replace a broken G string and still play.

In my present studio I have the purist, we mic up to suite the drummer, I mix to suite the recording. I have drummers come in and use triggers, etc I have an a/c plug-in right by the set-up area, I dont have drumagog or software like that, never have used it, sounds interesting though. If a drummer uses a triggered kit, its pretty easy for me, a stereo in and we are ready to go, there is a difference in what I hear, can do with the recording, but if the client is happy, so am I...so to me it really doesn't matter, its the player that has to be satisfied in the end...not me.

And all I got to say about keyboards... oh my ackin' back...having helped B3 players haul their organs around for sixteen years (back when) I have grown to appreciate....digital. That's 'bout it for me.

If it works, use it.